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              toofar
              toofar
              August 28, 2012
              Lee Morris

              Did Our Post On ‘Morning After’ Photography Go Too Far?

              Earlier today Lauren wrote a humorous, opinionated, post about ‘Morning After’ Boudoir Photography. This post was met with great hostility and inappropriate personal attacks towards Lauren. Is Fstoppers too big now to have a voice? Are we only allowed to report news stories without expressing opinions? Did we go to far or did commenting get out of hand?

              I started Fstoppers with Patrick less than 3 years ago and since then we have grown to something much bigger than I had ever hoped. We now have a huge team of talented writers and receive over 2 million page views each month. Patrick and I have given our writers freedom to basically post about whatever they like whether that is a standard re-post or a entertaining original opinion piece.

              What started all of this?
              If you didn’t read Lauren’s post, she basically claims that she is against ‘morning after’ photography because people are sharing these pictures on Facebook and then hanging them in public places around their homes. She specifically says she doesn’t have a problem with the pictures in general, she just believes they should be private:

              “In this video from Good Morning America, the bride states she plans to have the images framed and put up all over their room. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with doing that – your bedroom should be your sacred place for just the two of you. The room and all its decorations are just for you and your significant other. What I can’t grasp is why you would want something so sacred to be strewn all over the internet for your coworkers, perhaps boss, friends, and relatives to see.”

              Whenever you write an opinion piece like this you are going to have some people who agree with you and others that do not. It appears that in the case of Lauren’s post, the majority of readers disagreed with her. However, the most interesting part to me is to see how people respond to articles they don’t agree with. Let’s first look at an opinion piece that I recently wrote that the majority of people DID agree with: Why Bad Wedding Photographers Have Made The Industry Better. Aside from a few people on Facebook who claimed they would never come to Fstoppers again because I was being “mean” (I’m not sure they actually read my article), the majority of comments were very positive:

              “Great post, Lee. One of the better ones I’ve seen on this topic/issue”

              “Awesome post!!!”, “Thank you so much for writing this Lee.”

              “Damn, you guys have been cranking out some seriously good reads. Thanks Lee.”


              Nobody wrote anything like “I don’t come to Fstoppers for opinions, why don’t you stick to news.” Why? Because the majority of people agreed with me. Now let’s look at the responses to Lauren’s post in which more people disagreed with her. Here are a few of the comments that stood out to me:

              “Can we please have more articles about photography and less op-ed pieces from the office manager?”

              “Sorry but this article is total crap… People have eluded to this above but, I’m just going to come out and say it. This is NOT what I visit FS for.”

              “You are most definitely a prude. You are also being very judgemental of something that clearly doesn’t affect your target market. Whatever the client wants, there will most certainly be someone willing to take pictures of it and get paid for doing so. For you to say that a bride is “vain and self-loving” for wanting steamy photos of herself and the one she loves is honestly horrible and downright nasty.As for some critique of your portfolio, I find out-of-focus, grainy, shots with crooked horizons to be more offensive since your clients probably paid you for your time.”


              I want to make it clear that disagreeing with a writer and making a comment about it great, we want you to do that. I LOVE respectful debates and also appreciate when someone can sway my opinion by making a great argument. I simply want to point out how quickly things can get out of hand when people disagree with something they read online. Maybe you thought that Lauren was disrespectful towards those who do enjoy this type of photography or she was unfair to the photographers who are hired to shoot these jobs, that’s fine! I would probably agree with you. Writing that in the comments would make your point. Attacking Lauren personally or opinion pieces in general is not a way to argue nor behave, in my opinion.

              Most people only comment if they have something negative to say
              One of the most frustrating things about running Fstoppers (or anything on the internet) is that most people will not comment unless they are mad and have something negative to say. My post about bad wedding photography has been viewed 20,000 times now and has 28 comments. Lauren’s post has been up for only a few hours and has been viewed 9,500 times and has 60 comments. The other unfortunate thing that you have to remember is that controversy sells. Lauren’s post will probably become the most popular post of the entire week BECAUSE so many people commented negatively about it and then other people decide to comment to attack the attackers in the comments. Our most popular post of all time was The iPhone Fashion Shoot and the controversy of that post made it successful. People LOVE to tell me how terrible of a photographer I am and how I am lying to people about gear not being important and then there are others that LOVE to attack those commenters and stick up for me. The sad truth is that I bet the majority of people who read Lauren’s post DID agree with her and then they moved on to the next post. In many cases it’s only the people who take offense to an article that have the energy to write a comment.

              All of that being said I want everyone to know that we really appreciate each of you being readers and our goal is not to offend any of you but with around 500,000 different photographers coming to our website each month, we are bound to ruffle some feathers. Please take 5 seconds and check a box in the poll below so that we can get a realistic idea of our readers opinion of Lauren’s post.


               

               

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              ← Older Comments
              • http://www.facebook.com/timgallo84 Tim Gallo

                Its okay to have an opinion, its bad to have really narrow point of view on photography and not know what you talking about. I wish some of the writers on F-stoppers, who claim that this project is about  photography and media and stuff, would learn more about it, its history, read few books on photo-books or art and contemprorary photography. I have that feelings (that most of the time I try to ignore) that even though this fstoppers project (which i enjoy most of the time, btw) is still can`t jump from “wedding photographer” point of view… 

                i have to apologize for my english, its not my mothers tongue.

              • http://www.facebook.com/henryorth77 Henry Orth

                Here’s a comment for ya – Keep em coming – the articles that is!

              • http://www.facebook.com/karim.nassar.37 Karim Nassar

                Oh please give me a break.
                Lee you basically complain about “how” people responded to her article.Her article was hateful condescending and judgmental and disrespectful.

                If she behaves this way you should expect the same behavior back in the feedback.

                Don’t complain about the negativity and hate in the comments when your writers article was exactly just that.

              • http://twitter.com/Luthman Bengt Luthman

                Saying you don’t like the way certain photographs are displayed and saying that a specific photographers work sucks donkeyballs(free interpretation from my side) is not the same thing.

              • http://twitter.com/Luthman Bengt Luthman

                I work at a photomagazine and I think that it’s great to have opinionated material in the magazine. It makes for a more personal feel to it. These kinds of articles are often a great read and a shitload harder to write than a simple “how-to”. 

                I photographer I spoke to yesterday said something pretty smart: Most of the people who are complaining are the ones not being busy with work. If you’re good enough at what you do, you don’t have time to bitch about stuff on the internet.

              • Jesse_JM

                I’m new to the site, and one of the reasons I plan on reading more is because of op-ed pieces. I want opinions, thoughts, etc. I don’t want just another gear blog. As long as the arguments and opinions are well thought out (which I think Lauren’s was, and I agree with her) then I enjoy reading them and consider op-ed pieces a big plus.

                Just don’t start doing click-bait pieces. They work well in the short term… then you just turn into Gawker.

              • bevan goldswain

                I agreed with Lauren’s point regarding the lack of taste but it was at the best of times a painful read. She got all riled up to see such distasteful photography, I think that’s the issue at hand in a way. The medium (and execution thereof) is the message. Sex/intimacy is beautiful, but if you shoot it poorly it looks like porn. 

                The same applies to writing. You may have something great to say but if you write it poorly, if you fail to entertain whilst you put forward your agenda and the overall message we read is how stupid you think these people (everyone involved) are then you loose. 

                The main cause of all the anger here is that fstoppers has earned the permission of the tribe. That permission is abused when selfishly written articles are posted, or articles which try to leverage off current events and news for the sake of getting more eyeballs on the site (far too many in the past 6 months).

              • http://chrishoffmann.smugmug.com/ Chris Hoffmann

                I am sorry to inform you, but there are quite a few “conservative” photographers who are still artists at their core. And, yes, they think showing “morning after sex” photos is simply crap. Also, “conservatives” are not only in the US. There are also many other photogs in other countries that think this type of photography is overly self-serving to ones ego. However, no one ever called for a government ban to this. It’s simply an op-ed piece.

                You are entitled to your opinion, just as every one else is also entitled to their own. That’s why this became such an issue. People think differently, and placing judgment upon the individual (vs idea) because “they don’t think like you” is the root of the problem. You just blamed everyone in the GOP for this type of article, but what you did not realize is there are many people out there that disagree with the GOP and also may disagree with you. 

                “Judgmental and antiquated thinking.” Isn’t that what you just did by accusing an entire group of people (GOP) for the actions/thoughts of one? 

              • http://www.facebook.com/arno.kamphuis Arno Kamphuis

                First the positive (and most important): I love FS and will keep coming here!!! Great work and I enjoy it very much. Please also continue writing opinionated pieces, love those, even if I don’t agree!

                Second, in general people don’t understand that something can be an opinion, especially if it is written down. It is very easy for people to misinterpret written text. One option to solve this:

                Start doing opinionated VIDEO pieces!

                People really understand the nuances better when they also see the person before their eyes. This is just psychology. In addition, you are a video blog and not a writers blog, right ;-)

              • DafOwen

                I don’t mind opinion pieces at all – however for websites like Fstoppers I appreciate it if they present both sides of the argument.
                But  the article in question came over as Over-opinionated – it wasn’t a discussion, it was a tirade. The language in the article itself was strong and aggressive - and so it’s just to be expected that comments were the same.
                It was just too – I’m right, they’re wrong.
                Not an article style I hope to see again on here.

              • DafOwen

                Agreed – quite often the same content pops up on a whole load of my feeds – Peta Pixel, PopPhoto, ISO1200 etc etc.

                Fstoppers used to be largely unique with BTS only – but now it’s becoming one of the crowd regurgitating similar filler articles.

              • DafOwen

                PS Not read through all the comments in original.

              • Hunter Harrison

                First, I didn’t read any of the comments above. This is actually something I wanted to say yesterday and I think the point I’m going to make contributed to the poor reader response. I found the opinion piece very hard to read. I was struggling to follow Lauren’s argument against morning after sessions. In the end, I just found the piece confusing.

                I think others struggled also, and the piece may have come off as a pure rant. A good opinion piece should have a thesis and an argument. I certainly welcome opinion on Fstoppers, but it still needs to be opinion and not pure rant. Save rant for funny, snide jokes woven into the content. I mean I could rant for days about awful cameras, but no one wants to hear my opinion of Canon ;-)

              • DafOwen

                Agree with amanduca.
                And I understand where you’re coming from Chris Hoffman – but the kind of tirade I seen in article would have been more suitable for a politics or social commentary forum, not a photography site.

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=504269873 Erwan Lol

                Keep it up Fstoppers! If we can’t have opinions about where the industry is going, we are on the losing end. Continue publishing great articles like laureens’

              • John_Skinner

                I think being site originators your not new to the whole “comments” sections.. To have a knee jerk reaction to 2 or 3 articles that take a beating is a tad much. FStoppers, great site. I’ve seen and read things here I probably would have never been thinking about, let alone exposed to.

                But expect the unexpected,  if her post generated that much dust… so be it. Dust off, remount and move on.

                If you weren’t doing good work and people didn’t like the content, they would stay away. Pure & Simple.

                On a more personal note, I didn’t care for her article in the least. It was confusing, and at times… Just a bit prudish (IMO) and if it took a hit or 2, I understand that.

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733877787 Lennar Kivistik

                Just look at the poll, 817 positiv and 55 negative at this writing..  thats 93,69% Positiv and 6,31% negativ.
                id say you have a strong case that the majority did like it or just doesnt bother…
                Keep it up! :)

              • http://twitter.com/THEGREATZEEE THE GREAT ZEEE

                i honestly dont think fstoppers should validate what they post with another post. just post it and let it be. weather people trash it in the comments or love it in the comments, you cant please every one all the time. just keep that content coming.

                my 2 cents. spend it wisely

              • http://www.vinsonimages.com yamaha83

                keep doing good work fstoppers!!! Trolls can go back to their caves! 

              • http://tambnguyen.com/ Tam Nguyen Photography

                Any guestimate as to when we’ll see the new iPhone 4S/5 shoot?

              • http://twitter.com/scotthartman09 Scott Hartman

                I can’t say I side either way about whether it is a trend that needs to die…but I will say that I enjoy original pieces here much more than the bland news reporting side about what gear is getting released. 

                Editorials are just not going to be found everywhere.  If I wanted to get straight news, I would only go to petapixel, but I want BTS and opinion because it usually provides the most honest take.  A great example is the Videos about the fake Nikon grips that were floating around on the market.  Great info, and not something other news outlets are going to cover, and it even gives you a few tips to not fall into the pit.  

                Keep up what you are doing.  

              • http://twitter.com/SLphoto26 Spencer Lefevre

                Good Article!!! I read Lauren’s Post and thought it was good. Opinion articles are a good thing.

              • alex pickering

                Sooo… why not just do what you’ve done before with content and segment your Op-Ed articles onto a different tab? Equipment, BTS, Education or Op-Ed tabs would work just fine. If people want to rant on a piece, they can and it won’t affect the “integrity” of the site. Yeah, you’ll still get trolls-aplenty, but after a while they’ll find no one listens and move on to the next comment spotlight where they can find other haters. Either way traffic is traffic—positive or negative and I believe the old adage is still true when it comes to Web sites: any press is good press.

                One more thing… how has Lauren felt about this newfound attention?

              • Pip Neville

                Although I have sympathy with what you posted JR, I find myself coming back to the same quote more and more in my life: “The easiest thing in the world is to sit in the stalls and criticise the people on stage.” I for one appreciate what these guys do, and although we’ve all seen a change in the ethos over the last year or so, who’s to say what you or I would have done differently having to make the same decisions? The guys (and girls) ain’t doing so bad, or none of us would still be here would we? Just saying…

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=669059607 Matt Hartle

                I unfortunately have to agree… people seem to have the very unfortunate tendency to be negative by default.  I can’t say I really felt moved one way or another by this article… I just enjoyed reading/viewing it.  I personally consider Fstoppers my greatest find of the year, website wise.  I have no idea how you guys collate so much incredible content on a daily basis but I love it!!  thx!  -m

              • jamesbjenkins

                I blame trolls for this whole kerfluffle.

              • jamesbjenkins

                I blame the trolls for this whole kerfluffle.

                In Lauren’s defense, I too think “morning after” photography is super awkward and weird.

              • http://twitter.com/sankeyphoto Sankey Photography

                I’m going to relate an experience here that will sound off-topic, but addresses this issue directly.  Bear with me.  

                Years ago, I worked in admissions for a small liberal-arts college here in Memphis.  One question I heard *at least* once a day from parents was about the party/drinking/greek culture on campus, and whether or not their child could avoid that culture and still have a good campus experience.  Nevermind some of the obvious baggage tied up in a question like that – my response to the parents was this:  When you’re on a campus with only 1500 people, you will – at some point – cross paths with damn near everyone, which was (and is) precisely the point.  Your campus experience would be impacted in ways small and large by those who had everything in common and those who had nothing in common with one another, and all points in between.  If you want your child to spend four years surrounded by only those who think and act like them, you need to find a bigger pool to swim in.

                Well, the internet is, quite obviously, the ultimate big pool.  The gradual degradation of what passes for debate and critical thinking in our culture over the last 50 years has kicked into hyperdrive along with the internet in the last 10-15 years, in my opinion.  Those who freaked out over this ‘Morning After’ post illustrate this point perfectly.  Either I agree with you (which, let’s face it, really means to the typical reader that *you* agree with *me* – but that’s a whole ‘nother post), which means that you’re either worthy of lavish praise or don’t merit comment at all…  Or you’re a @#^ing idiot.  There doesn’t seem to be much in-between anymore.

                As for me?  I love the work I see posted on F-Stoppers, and I realize that a) whether I love it or hate it, it’s not *my* site, and b) if I really don’t like a certain post…  I CAN GO ELSEWHERE.  Those of you who stooped to ad hominem attacks – get over yourselves and your delusions of relevance…  and move the F on.

              • http://profile.yahoo.com/TF73WKNZ66YXOAXIVKNYNL5ESA Andrew

                I’m curious to know whether you purchased the rights to use the Ziggy cartoon you posted with this article, especially since you’ve cropped out the bottom portion where the author’s signature appears in the original image. 

              • http://www.facebook.com/people/Matias-Acevedo/1014569066 Matias Acevedo

                keep doing this great job! dont waste time fighting with bitter people.

                best regards from chile

              • Jr Miller

                Obviously I’m a fan if I stuck around long enough to see the gradual change to where they are at now…They had a formula that worked, and now there is a lot of noise distracting from that. Just saying…

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1374609376 Tim Krueger

                 well said ithacermike!

              • http://www.facebook.com/jason.born.7982 Jason Born

                I also agree with amanduca. As the polling is showing so far,
                few are opposed to opinion pieces on Fstoppers. Many readers are sympathetic
                with the author’s position. But I am not that suprised that the tone used by
                Lauren drew out the trolls.

                 

                Starting with the title “… absurd”, other select
                gems just within the first paragraph “needs to die” , “and to me it is narcissistic, unnecessary, and absurd.”

                 

                I
                suspect this was done for effect, not deliberate malice.  But really, while not directed at a specific
                individual by name, how is this type of attack language any different than what
                folks put in the comments? If I were a provider or aficionado of this
                type of photography, how do I not interpret the start of the article as a
                personal attack on my beliefs? 

                 

                Lee – The key question here is not ‘should we do OpEd’ – the
                polling is clear, go for it.  The
                question to you is, “what is your OpEd standards?”.   Do you want a free-for-all, use any language
                you want, no-logic-required type of ‘rant’ or do you want to keep the standards
                more similar to a newpaper, where the OpEd expresses an opinion, but still
                maintains some standards of decorum and purpose and, dare we say, logic.

                 

                Suppose Lauren had written the article as:

                 

                Title: “Does ‘day after’ boudoir photography make
                sense?  For me, no.”

                First paragraph:

                 

                There is a growing trend…it is this… -Think of all the
                things that can go wrong here (it goes on Facebook, do we want the kids to see
                it… do our customers realize that at least some folks are going to find this
                offensive?)

                Have we as photographers thought through all the
                implications here?

                -What does it mean to have this work mixed into your portfolio?

                -Do we have a duty to protect our customers from themselves
                or is anything goes, ring that register, the rule?

                 

                I bet you that such an article would have started a
                healthier discussion.  And is more
                fitting with the community you have created at Fstoppers.

                 

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=617657290 Brian Lynch

                It honestly makes me sick to read the comments on here sometimes.

                Regardless of whether you agree with her opinion or not, respect the writer and argue your point like an educated adult — which the majority of these people are. Being on the internet doesn’t mean you get free reign to be a complete moron. Lauren (I assume) spent a great deal of time writing that article and I think she did a good job.

                In short: People need to grow up. She wrote an article. You disagree. Life sucks. FS is not a news organization, they don’t claim or need to report straight facts all the time. You wouldn’t visit here if they did.

              • Richard Melanson

                Good idea with the poll.  As you can see (overwhelmingly), the majority of readers are likely level-headed adults that have more productive things to do than pick internet fights.  I’m rarely ever compelled to comment on something I disagree with, because I don’t see the point, and feel like it is a waste of time (and I honestly don’t think I’m going to change anyone’s mind on the internet). 

                Things that inspire me, drive me, and make me think  – those are the things I DO feel compelled to comment on, regardless of the context.  Why?  Because THAT’S THE CONTENT I WANT MORE OF.  I want to let the creator know I enjoyed it, and that their hard work did not go unnoticed.

                I’m all for civil discourse (when it is civil), but get a grip people.

                Keep up the good work guys…

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=563353245 Olivier Borgognon

                I think the change might be that the BTS are not all of Fstoppers, and people, photographers etc, might not have the resources, business, capacity etc. to do as many BTS, refocusing on the core business. Thus, less to be shown and the guys are working hard on feeding us with something and I do believe the quest for them is getting much harder than before. what do you think ? 

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=563353245 Olivier Borgognon

                I’m just amazed with the manners and how rude some people are towards the team of Fstoppers (or many others). Should I say education starts at home without being disrespectful ?

                Questions: 
                - Would you write to a newspaper to tell them you don’t like their articles as a reader ? 
                - Would you complain in a superstore because some of their products are not to your liking ? (I.e : a vegetarian or vegan complaining that the store sells meat, or fish etc.)
                - Would you enter a sex shop if you are not a consumer, to tell them your thoughts and be rude to them ? 
                - Would you criticize a restaurant for their menu ? 

                So… why would you criticize Fstoppers for their content ? If you don’t like it, just pass your way, or take what is good for you and leave the rest no ? Please, to all you moaners and ranters, pay the team their due respect for everything they do for us. 

                Close your eyes 1 minute, review all you have read and seen on Fstoppers, value it in terms of what it would have cost you to learn that knowledge if you had to take classes, or use your precious time to find it all and then… 

                …Go for the paradigm shift and be grateful, it’s all here, it’s a given, for free, a community based not on financial terms, paying for it, but on knowledge and appreciation of what we all like, arts, photography, technique, discovery, culture… a bit of it all. 

                Thank you FSTOPPERS, and thank you to all of you contributors, for your time, hard work, education, will to share… you are all working really hard for us here, on top of your jobs and family lives, taking some of your precious time away from your loved ones for the sake of a bunch of unappreciative, selfish, never content moaners… and the others :)

              • Chanes2

                To be honest with you I didn’t comment the post but : I really was surpised by this one. For me, it was one of the best. Definitly! Keep doing this! 

                As told Richard few comments ago, I didn’t even try to enter in the debate when I saw the comments. The experience I had in the past shows that trying to debate on internet is a waste of time. Nobody change his mind. Most of the time it even reinforce their points of view… so I just let them speak without a care…

                Anyway keep doing FStoppers team! I love your job!

              • Jr Miller

                Perhaps, though many BTS vids are not big budget. It’s a matter of an interesting subject combined with a clear how-to that makes them attractive. Quality work always requires effort, but doesn’t have to be expensive to do. They did it in the beginning  what’s changed to make it harder?

              • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=563353245 Olivier Borgognon

                Photographers are maybe focusing on their main work… photography, and a BTS, might be some kind of promo, but it’s a big time/work/team investment. 

                I think the contest of FStoppers made a huge bounce on the BTS, people were doing some because there was a prize… and it’s a challenge. no pain, no gain… but no gain, why bother with pain… 

                Even if you take a few hours to surf the net to find new BTS, it’s rare, it’s hard, and many are model focused and not BTS with the info and details focused. If FS would post that… the team would be taken down in fire for showing boobs or so… IMHO. 

              • Arturo Paulino

                I absolutely loved her piece and actually I thought of re-posting myself.  As you said, I read it I basically kept reading other feeds and moved on.  Thank you for giving us a chance to express our support for this post Lee!
                - arturo

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