Good or Great Photo? Is This Opinion Self-Righteous, Sanctimonious, or Absolutely Correct?

What's the difference between a good photo and a great photo? Can anyone even agree on how to distinguish the two? One man has tried, and it's a rather polarizing view.

Recently here on Fstoppers, one of my fellow writers opened the debate on what constitutes "fine art," and that article has generated some very interesting discussion. What I liked reading most was the variety in readers' ideas of how they define art and fine art. It's a very polemic topic and shows that people have their own interpretations of terms, definitions, and quality with regards to art and photography. And so it is with how you define good photography and great photography. Again, it's almost impossible to create a universally accepted definition that clearly distinguishes the two, because there is so much emotion and personal interpretation involved.

However, Marc Newton, from The School of Photography, has put his neck on the proverbial chopping block and tried to put a line between the two. As I watched and listened, at first, I thought he was way off the mark and a little bit condescending, but in the second half, he turned me around somewhat. What I liked is that not only is he forthright with his opinion, he also gives reasons and endeavors to provide evidence for his views. I do recommend you watch it and stay to the end, because he does provoke thought and considered discussion, which is always healthy. 

What do you think? Is he self-righteous, absolutely correct, or somewhere in the middle? Please leave your thoughts in the comments below.

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Robert Nurse's picture

I'd dare wager that, right here on FS, there are photographs that if you hung in a gallery, would be just as compelling and thought provoking. And yes, when I saw that image of the solar panels, I wasn't impressed. Not every photograph will move me. But, to say it's not good, because I don't like it is, frankly, absurd. Just as it is to say that because photos hang in a gallery, that that makes them worthy.

Robert Nurse's picture

Hah! I gave French food a try once ( and wasn't impressed. Caribbean and Indian food, however, is my obsession. As you said, different strokes for different folks.

David Pavlich's picture

Ya' see! Right here we have a disagreement. I really enjoy French food, especially after spending 20+ years in New Orleans. :-)

Jeff Walsh's picture

"But, to say it's not good, because I don't like it is, frankly, absurd."

That statement is what makes art such a wonderful subject. 100% agree with you

Iain Stanley's picture

I often wonder how someone gets “spotted” and rises above so many other wonderful photographers......

Alex Yakimov's picture

Basically Marc believes that a single subject photography however nice would account to a penny. It will take a sophisticated technique (Gursky painstaking editing and large prints), exquisite style and a relevant message to have a shot at being great. There are exceptions though... To my mind comes an image of the bird covered in oil after a spill.

David Pavlich's picture

He's not offending me. He did state that we have our opinions. My first reaction to an image/print is, "would I hang that in my living room?" I wouldn't hang a picture of a mountain of solar cells in my living room. Just the same as I wouldn't hang a picture of a wind farm in my living room. I happen to like good landscape shots. Wind farms and solar cells don't comprise a good landscape shot. I'll stop here. From this point, opinions about energy production becomes too political.

David Pavlich's picture

In full agreement. An image can be terrific, but not for my living room. Then again, who is your audience/clients? I sell prints and pretty much know what the average home owner/office dweller is looking for. These people are mostly different from those that go to an exhibit of a famous photographer. I can sort of tell if people are looking at my stuff whether or not they are 'artistic types' or someone that just likes a neat shot that has some pretty nice colors.

Jeff Walsh's picture

This is the best part of art. It's completely and totally subjective, and it's worth and value is rooted in it's ability to move people in some way. I've recently become obsessed with photographer David Butow, his work is incredible to me. He does a lot of political shots, but the work that's really caught my eye is his work from Hong Kong. It's graphic, but it's very moving. I question whether I would hang it on my wall, which is thought provoking.

Thanks for that. I'll have a closer look this evening at the work of David Butow. Just yesterday I visited an exposition of Peter Dammann (1951-2015) in my home town. Check out his reports: I think you will like it.

Iain Stanley's picture

The living room test is a good one and I use it too, but a gorgeous landscape, no matter how gorgeous and how “living room worthy” it might be, is so readily accessible these days. You needn’t look any further than some of the outstanding photos contributed by the Fstoppers community here.

So, for me at least, a great photo has to be more than something I can find pretty easily on Instagram or on photography sites. Granted, a huge field of solar panels doesn’t cut the mustard, but I’m hard pressed these days to claim many landscape shots as “great”. I guess that’s why I struggle sometimes, coz I love landscape photography more than any other genre.....

David Pavlich's picture

No disagreement here. It's all subjective, that is for sure. Telling a story is part of what makes a great shot and Gursky's stuff does that. But, if it wants to pass my test for great, it has to do more than tell a story. The guy in the video makes the claim that it's the story that the image of a pile of solar cells that makes it a great shot and, just as I am allowed my opinion, so is he. I don't agree with his opinion because it takes more than a story to make an image great.

Iain Stanley's picture

yep, wholeheartedly agree. I've written a number of articles here on Fstoppers relating to the importance of storytelling but, like you, I feel a photo has to be more than "just" a story. Street photography, photojournalism, a cat holding a mouse can all "tell stories", but they mightn't do much for me at all aesthetically. So I think perhaps we're alike in that a photo needs to be aesthetically pleasing and possess some element of thought provocation in order for it to jump into the possible realms of "great".......

Art is in the eye beholder...I have this masterpiece in my office/man alcove..

A classic. Why isn't the original hanging in the Louvre?

David Pavlich's picture

Okay. I did my due diligence and visited Gursky's webpage. Some of his shots are compelling, but some I've seen at our image review nights for my photo club. Not his shots in particular, but shots that mirror Gursky's shots. Some of his stuff would work well on a travel brochure. I'm not saying that Gursky is a typical photographer....far from it. What I am saying is that even Gursky produces 'camera club class images', but because he has a name and reputation, he gets the accolades.

Iain Stanley's picture

Are the camera club images similar to Gursky’s a testament to his influence?

David Pavlich's picture

I don't think so. They are shots that I've seen not only at our club, but on Smug Mug and Viewbug. Not all of Gursky's shots, but enough of them to be able to say that some of his shots are 'great' because he has a name and reputation.

Art & Photography should be one in the same, You can not have one without the other. The only difference between the two is that some "artist" use photography as another means of self expression. Where as the "photographer" use a photograph as a means to showcase his or her talent in post processing an image that would have been acceptable if left alone. I'm an artist first, Photographer second. I manipulate my art/photography in order to achieve the desired results. This doesn't mean I post process. Instead I use gigs or gadgets, timing, creative filters and image conversions to achieve my goals. It is very rare, that I see "Fine Art" on Fstoppers, But Mary Bel's work is extremely close.

Not to go into to much detail, but there is a FS member who jokingly posted a picture of a command wall mount coat hanger and proclaimed it to be art.. Mind you, venture into mainstream galleries in Baltimore and you will see a few things "we" would not classify as art, yet they do. "They" as in the gallery set the rules of what is or isn't art. So I can honestly say some of this so called "art" isn't art at all but a bunch of mangled junk placed on the floor or thrown on a wall. No, Crime Scenes shouldn't be viewed as art, but some artist have used dead bodies within their art and met with rave reviews. by the way, taking a photo of solar panels is not art.. Though NASA might think so.

Here's another for instance, Several years ago, while visiting a major art gallery (which will remain nameless) A fellow viewing artwork on the gallery walls, was distracted and dropped his glasses then walked away from the painting. Moments later, passerby viewing the artwork on the walls, noticed the glasses on the floor near the artwork. Everyone started taking pictures of these glasses on the floor proclaiming this to be art or a masterpiece. The fellow who dropped his glasses, walked up, picked up his glasses and left the gallery..

Michael Holst's picture

"Art & Photography should be one in the same, You can not have one without the other."

What? You cannot have art without photography? What about paintings? Dancing? Music? Sculptures?

HE'S OUT OF HIS $#@&*%+ MIND! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder . . . But wait - My first thought when I saw the solar panels was to wonder, "Where in God's beautiful world would we place so many man-made objects so as to obscure that beauty?" Wasn't that Marc's intention when he set out to define great FINE ART photos - to create THOUGHT not kudos for a BEAUTIFUL picture? By pointing this out, he gave ME a new perception of what ART is in photography. I learned a new way of looking at, seeing and photographing the world around me. Thank you, Marc!

T Scarb's picture

The guy is an idiot... and button pushers are not artists and do not create art.

Solar panels show us " what humans are doing to this planet"

I can say... Kingfisher birds show us how beautiful the creatures are on this planet and how we are not alone and should help protect these creatures...

waxing poetic about a picture does not make it art... it just blows smoke at people with more money than sense.

Michael Holst's picture

Count me as someone who is not only impressed by the photo of the solar panels but inspired by it.

What I'm more curious about is the gentleman he was interacting with... I obviously don't know enough about the context of the situation but who brings their expensive camera gear to a show? Wouldn't that be similar to someone bringing a musical instrument with them to a concert? I've seen people do this at other shows and it never fails to make me cringe. I feel like it's a very desperate attempt to look like they'd be an expert because what photographer doesn't constantly carry thousands of dollars worth of equipment around their necks.

Steve Wood's picture

I would love to find out what defines a GREAT photo, but this does not do it. Looking beyond the photo sounds good, but is just an exercise in creative fiction. Say I show a a typical camera club baby shot, maybe technically good, but looking beyond it I can see over-population, immigration, birth control etc. Likewise a kingfisher - looking beyond the photo I see water pollution, habitat destruction, etc etc.

Iain Stanley's picture

Is that because of your own considerable education or because of what the image you're looking at evokes?

What exactly is he telling us? There is no reasoning why this Gursky photograph is art. And by just saying it is art, it is not art. And yes, this is condescending: If you do not see the art you are just like the one described in the beginning of this video ("if you don't look into the depth of the image..."). I am not a Andreas Gursky fan like I am not a Damien Hirst or Jeff Koons fan. I still can accept his work but here we have someone telling us: Hey, it is a Gursky, so it is art. You do not agree? Well, you are entitled to your own opinion, but in fact it is you who just does not get it.

So I simply ask: Does this particular photo of Gursky really "going to be changing the world". I highly doubt it.

Alex Yakimov's picture

It is a difficult task to prove that something as subtle and refined as a single art piece have a lasting influence on humanity. But still there is a potential to a Butterfly effect.

I agree, but this is the only argument the guy in the video is giving. Is this debatable? I think, it is not. So you either believe him: It is art (because it is a Gursky, really?) or you do not (but then you just are not skilled enough to look "into the depth"). I think this is utter BS.

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