How would you feel if you were taking photos of some train tracks and suddenly found your name on a list formed by the government of people acting suspiciously? What about photos of planes taking off and landing, sea ports or industrial buildings? NPR reported today that such a list exists and I'll post some shots of it below. If your name shows up on this list be ready to have the FBI knock on your door or give you a call as one photographer in LA experienced.
Hal Bergman loves shooting all things industrial in and around Los Angeles. Unfortunately throughout his shoots he has also been stopped on numerous occasions by police officers asking about his activity. Often the officers will hear his explanation, see some of his photos and let him be on his way. But on more than one occasion his name has been reported to the Nationwide Suspicious Activity list which is an initiative started by the Justice Department. As a result, at one point two FBI agents showed up at his door to investigate the situation and another he received a phone call from the FBI asking questions like, 'Do you hold any ill will toward the United States of America?'
Is this list limiting our ability to take the photographs we wish? Are our freedoms of being able to create art even while we are on public property being taken from us?
Here are some screen shots from the database of suspicious activity that has been reported in the past.
Here is a screenshot from the Los Angeles Regional Intelligence Center.
If you would like to check out more suspicious activity reported to a list collected out in California you can find it here in this PDF.
Lastly, here are a few photos I grabbed while out driving around practicing a few years ago. Thankfully, as far as I know, I have not been placed on the suspicious activity list. Have you?
But I think the real horrible part of this is that even if you do show paperwork, or aren't doing anything - the police may not think so. They can always write up a report and file it somewhere like this system.
What am I missing in this story? You don't have to identify yourself to police if asked, or give any kind of documents on what you're doing. There is no law saying you need to carry ID or prove why you're taking a picture. People are such sheep. Learn to stand up for yourselves.
only time you have to show id is when you are driving a motor vehicle. but i can guarantee you, if you don't show an id when you are out walking and a cop wants to see your id they will find something to cite you for. i suppose it depends on how ornery i want to be if i stand up for myself or not. or how much time i have to waste on the ocassional belligerent cop.
Right, but still not a law that you have to have any kind of ID. I was out once in an area apparently patrolled often for one reason or another, and a cop drove up and talked to me for a second, asked if I had any ID on me. I said no, and the cop said "ok, have a good night."
If people are putting themselves on lists because they're cowering in fear over being asked a question, I really don't know what to say. That's pretty sickening. "They'll find something to cite you for", is a terrible attitude to have. If I'm illegally detailed just because a cop feels like it, I'm not going to be quiet about it and no one else should either. You DO NOT have to identify yourself, and there is no requirement for you to even speak to an officer longer than you want, stay, or leave an area you have a legal right to be in. Police can only do what you let them.
i don't think it is a terrible attitude to have to suspect a cop is going to find something to cite you for even if you have done nothing wrong. i think it is what side of the bed he got up that morning.
i do not cower in fear over anything.
i have had cops push me around at a crime or accident scene denying me access even though i had a legal right to be where i wanted to be. so it is not beyond conjecture one might find a reason to cite me for something because i didn't show an ID.
one time at a murder scene the reporter kept them busy while i snuck around back and the other time, well the cop was not happy with the photo. nothing illegal or untoward was published.
are you saying you don't have to have any kind of ID on you when you are driving a vehicle? somehow that doesn't seem logical.
Me too! I once flew to Dubai for work and the plane had to make an emergency landing in Iran (something to do with the wrong wind). When I visited the good ol' States a few weeks later I was "interrogated" by FBI at the airport as to what I was doing in Iran and why I wanted to visit the States.
To be fair, as a white, middle class, tertiary educated male flying business class, I did pose a terrible threat. They were actually very polite, deferential, and gave me one of the best cups of coffee I've ever had. I got the impression that they knew asking me was ridiculous but they had to anyway. And all I lost was 30 minutes of my time, and now I have a great dinner party story.
Although now I'm a photographer full time I don't have anyone to pay for business class flights. I missed a trick there. Maybe next time they won't be so nice...
Corrected for you. "If they have NO suspicion nor warrant, the government has NO business in my business." Let me put it this way son, I've been working in national security for almost 2 decades, and still feel that the government has NO business getting into your business UNLESS they first have real suspicion AND have a warrant. To claim 'if you have nothing to hide, who cares' only hands to the government all their rights.
You truly deserve no freedom of security if you're willing to give up some freedom for some security. As an american you NEED to demand and exercise your freedoms to preserve them!
EXACTLY!
Happy they keep track of that stuff. I dont mind if they follow what i do... if it can help them stop bad people from doing bad stuff - go for it.
Not sure if troll, or just really stupid.
Tell me, how in the world does approaching someone taking pictures of railroad tracks for artistic purposes, actually help the government catch criminals? People don't seem to understand that when you get on some list saying you are a suspicious character (though you really aren't) you are then flagged throughout any system. Like for example (this is the best example and most probable) you may be singled out by the TSA at an airport when trying to catch a flight - just cause you did nothing wrong.
The only thing they are stopping, is us from creative expression.
The thing is not 100% of people who are going to stand and snap pics of trains will be there for artistic reason, the same way not always 100% of people who go cheer people who run a marathon are really there to cheer. Also not always 100% who go on planes are there to travel. You never know. And im glad to see at least they are trying to find the bad guys. And yes, I would be ok if 1 person gets delayed by 15 min in the airport than having 5/100/1000/3000 people dead because no one cared....
You are far more likely, not going to say exactly how likely because I couldn't find good enough numbers, to be killed by police officers than you are terrorists. What are we doing to stop police officers?
Sources: Arrest related deaths 2003-2009 http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2228
Number of americans killed by terrorists since 9/11 http://www.infowars.com/more-americans-killed-by-bees-and-wasps-or-falli... (not a great source but there is a lot of leeway and it is a sourced article).
No matter what they do, no matter, we will never have 100% security, and to achieve something rather close to so called 100% security, we simply would't have rights anymore.
Also, when somebody says they have nothing to hide, they're lying.. everyone has something to hide.
I'll leave you with the words of the great Benjamin Franklin, "They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
If terrorists want the pic of some facility, they will get it and the police won't even notice. There are many ways to get those images without a tripod and a bulky camera. All this effort to track people just minding their own business is a waste of time and resources. Not even one on a million of this cases actually have something to do with terrorism.
Not even a dictatorial state can have total control of the people. it's so absurd that in the times of google earth, gopros, google glass and $9.99 spy cams people think they can control or protect anything by bulling photographers.
and it appears even more useless since in many "hideouts" no picture were found... it is just a movie cliche....
Three years from now you'll start to see facial recognition cameras everywhere that will be tied to a system that will immediately check your Internet use, chats and email. I understand being safe, but why are we all presumed guilty.
if you dont have anything to hide - you should not worry or care. It's not like their super computer is enjoying your emails about stupid cats and cute kids... If they enjoy reading my emails to my family - go for it. if on the same time they are able to catch the next Dzhokhar Tsarnaev - even better
I have nothing to hide, but I would sure like my privacy if I want to research about the strange rash between my legs. Also if I want to go photograph a bridge, I should not have to worry about getting harassed and made to feel like I have some motive of blowing it up.
The thing that makes me laugh is that somehow our government feels like terrorists are not going to be smart enough to figure this out. Like if they get questioned about shooting a bridge they are not already going to have prepared answers. Heck they'll probably even have business cards made up and have practiced their photography skills to show some nice photos in the camera to the police officer questioning them.
I understand it's annoying to get asked by police officer why you are shooting a bridge, but it will be more annoying if the same police officer wont ask anyone why they are doing it, and the next day the same bridge will explode :) Of course 99.9% of the times no one is going to have bad intentions... but for that 0.01% - worth the 1 minute questioning...
I almost got arrested in NYC for taking a photo in the subway station on 9/11 4-5 years ago. I even had to fight with them about how artistic is my shot... they said it's not artistic :( :( but I was happy that at least for one day a year they try to check stuff like this
Maybe worth 1 minute of questioning. But worth putting your name on a government list? Worth having the FBI come to your door to talk to you about it? Worth getting held-up and questioned next time I travel outside the country because my name shows up in the computers as suspicious... all because I wanted a nice sunset photo of the new bridge in town? We give a little here, we give a little there... it won't be long before we have nothing more to give of the freedoms we enjoy so much.
Look what happened when we gave Apple freedom. We got iOS7 in return. Was it worth it. No. But at least they got freedom...
Good point. We should have restricted Apple's freedom to save all of us from iOS 7.
You seem to be running on the presumption that government is a benevolent entity, always looking out for your best interests. Read a few history books and see if you can spot a pattern. Our own current government has crossed the line far too many times.
Unfortunately we as a society are constantly being conditioned to accept the next step downward in the massive surveillance of entire population. We already have an out of control security apparatus that works in the shadows. We have a government and corporations that work above the law or have laws tailored to exonerate their crimes.
Enlightened minds have warned us about this for centuries.
"if you dont have anything to hide - you should not worry or care"
Congratulations, you having been perfectly conditioned to accept your diminishing freedoms. Be warned, It's a one way street, less freedom for you, more non accountability for the powers that be.
Look at the attempts to create laws banning the photographing of police activity. Do they ever have something to hide?
Shoot a bridge or report on something deemed not to be in the best interests of the government and you too can end up on a watch list, no fly list, or much much worse. This is happening NOW and will only get worse, in no small part because of people with attitudes like your own.
The thing is - i dont feel less 'free' or feel like i dont have privacy. Even if some gov bot is spying on what I post on FB or what I search on Google - again - dont care. cause it makes no difference. If i searched for a way to make bombs - great, they can arrest me. If i search for cute cat pictures - no one will care.
I dont say everything the gov is doing is good. Some bad stuff in many different fields. But you can't call them out for trying to make it a safer place. Too bad they had to wait for 3000 people to die to start taking it seriously.
"you can't call them out for trying to make it a safer place"
If only that were true. More than anything, 9/11 has become a massive payday for government contractors. No bid contracts, dark budgets, so little oversight that even congressmen and senators are woefully uninformed of what the security apparatus is doing.
This surveillance, which flies against so many principles of freedom, has a chilling effect on a societies willingness to speak against. I barely convinced myself to reply on this forum because I'd rather not end up on someone's list for having an "ill will toward the United States of America". I know many people who feel the same way.
Until you acknowledge and understand the level of abuses being perpetrated by the US government right now, you're going to remain a happy captive. Nothing to hide, for now. Look at history, sooner or later it could be something as simple as your party affiliation, activism, union membership, religion, etc. Bury your head now and you are complicit.
The US government has gone off the rails, aided and abetted by its citizenry. We truly deserve the government we get.
Based on what you say - you dont want the FBI/CIA/Military/Police to do any intelligence work? You don't want them to try and stop the next terror attack?
How do you feel about security cameras in stores? Why is that ok? im being filmed and seen by a hard drive... everyday!
What about the speeding cameras on the road? they take away my privacy in my own private closed car.
You get my point.
"You don't want them to try and stop the next terror attack?". Nonsense.
I didn't say all intelligence work is bad. I will say there is far too much surveillance going on. The massive data collection centers going up are providing the groundwork for fishing expeditions on whoever the government might deem "subversive". When entire populations are being monitored for their communications, movement, and can have their information mined without warrants or recourse, that's bad, and the government has constantly lied about the extent to which it is being done.
You could say I'm more old school. I'd prefer that wire tapping happen only with a court order.
Getting back to the above article, these 'lists' that are being created are highly subjective, prone to abuse and have no recourse available to the individuals being put on them.
This story reminds me a lot of the "No Fly" lists that were created after 9/11. You can end up on them for simply traveling to the wrong place, or reporting the wrong story. You have no idea who put you on, for what reason, and are not even given notice that you are on one. You have no ability to appeal the action either. That is a serious abuse of government.
The same thing happens with national security letters, which you can't even speak of if you're given one. These are extrajudicial actions that in my opinion, are completely illegal and against the fundamentals of our country.
EXACTLY!
Starting from a point it might be more dangerous to have so much private data collected about individuals. Terrorists might get that data and everything could become much worse, like identity theft and innocent people being framed for terrorism, for example.
stores are one thing, random street pole and other places are another thing entirely. i don't want anyone to be able to track me all day long. IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS WHAT I DO.
Do you really think they care about YOU personally? do you really think someone is sitting somewhere checking every step you Lara is doing? Trust me, they dont :)
Let the FBI google this: Noam Galai + ground zero + helicopter + photograph
Welcome to "the list" Noam.
I feel safer already.
They probably have me on the list because my face pretty much brought down few world leaders around the world in the past 7 years ;)
And if im on that list - my life is still the same
It's you right to "feel" however you like, but don't force others to feel the same, when they don't.
Try to read some history, people who posed as "protectors" were not always good, and people who got arrested, tortured and executed were not always bad. It is always wrong to give to some people so much power and data. A badge doesn't make someone a saint.
it doesn't matter to you. but it matters to me that there are CCTVs everywhere.
and if i am writing a story on bomb making or heck i am just curious, then i should not be arrested. maybe you were overstating.
It's not always about if "we" have Anything to hide. We could be monitored to make sure we don't know what they are up to. A lot of flaky government thigs going on anymore and people are blowing the whistle on them.
I had this happen to me once. I was taking a walk in a small town in PA, where I lived at the time, taking pictures. The cops stopped me, long story short I'm glad I had my digital camera with me that day and not my 35mm.
Yea, that would have sucked if they took your film or detained you until it was developed.
So you've got nothing to hide... Fancy telling that to authorities after somebody told them you've got something to hide? Would you, in their position, believe the brave citizen denunciating his neighbor or the probably innocent person that is said to have something to hide?
Because, even after your logic, authorities can't ignore any information about possible suspicious activities, and may it lead to psychological and physical harm to the suspects, they can't risk to let this 10.000th person go that really is about to commit a crime.
But that's an old story. Centuries ago, when you didn't like you neighbors wife, you just had to say "Witch!".
Edit: The latter might still be useful in states where you can claim land property by just sitting on it longer than others...
Sure. Because no one has EVER been accused of something they didn't do/intend to do based on circumstantial evidence...
Mistakes happen all the time in anything anyone do in life. The question is if you rather not having mistakes by them not doing anything...
Freedom is a nice word. But let's be realistic here... full freedom = madness :)
it isn't a matter if i have nothing to hide, it is none of the government's business where i go, who i talk to and what i photograph. the gradual erosion of civil rights will eventually doom us to none.
It's their business to make sure no one is up for no good. Do you think it would be good if they checked on what the Tsarnaev brothers are up to the week before the Boston Bombing? Or the guys who kidnapped the planes on 9/11?
Intel is so important. People have to stop thinking of themselves a little and think about the bigger picture
“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.” — Adolf Hitler
No the problem here is that they are already INCRIMINATING you of suspicious behavior. Are you that blind, do you not see that somebody is being accused of something they didn't or aren't doing.
You, sir, seem very naive and overly trusting..
Im realistic. I feel like many of the commenters here are watching way too many action movies ;)
They have already started tracking our vehicles.
https://www.aclu.ORG/alpr
Sadly, you've been a misled and misinformed young individual.
Or maybe i know more than you think and this is why I say what I say. I can say I was on the other side, you know, the side that try to protect civilians like you and your family from terrorists. And there is no way to do it without intelligence. Trust me no one cares about your facebook statuses or your artistic instagram photos if you have nothing to hide. No one cares.