Photographers can be a really unpleasant bunch. This great video looks into why that is, what it's like to experience it, and what we can do to make the community better.
Coming to you from Tony and Chelsea Northrup, this awesome video explores the toxicity of the photography community. I think few people will argue that there can be a lot of negativity when it comes to photography and the internet, and I've seen that negativity discourage beginners to the point of leaving the hobby altogether, which is really a shame. What always bothers me is how wholly unnecessary the overwhelming majority of it is — mostly cheap sarcasm and dismissive and rude or defensive attitudes that benefit no one, when a bit of constructive criticism or being open-minded and humble would be far more beneficial for all involved. It's a shame, because a lot of useful knowledge and opportunities for feedback and connection are often lost amid this endless din, and seemingly little is gained. Still though, we can all do our part to recognize toxic behavior, react in an appropriate and constructive manner, and encourage more positivity and fruitful interactions in the photography community; we have a lot to gain by doing so.
Lead image by Tim Gouw.
I listened to this podcast this morning. They made some great points. I feel that some people think “giving criticism” means “free pass to be a jerk”.
While I’m honest with my criticism, I’m also mindful of my word choices and I’m considerate of the person’s level. It’s possible to be critical and encouraging at the same time. It’s harder than name calling and being rude, but it is possible.
That being said, this problem goes beyond the photography community. The Facebook comments on my favorite hockey team’s page after every loss are just cancerous.
I think you're right. I think for some reason Internet makes people loose breaks and say things they wouldn't usually say in person.
people use anonymity to say things they wouldn't normally have the courage to say to someone's face.
as for photography specifically, there's a difference between criticism, constructive criticism and critiquing. people usually ask for the first, not fully understanding what it means, believing it means the second or third. the really silly ones are those who post their photos then say, "only positive comments, please," um, ok.
personally, i think the root of photog on photog violence is due to insecurity. some of the nastiest are from those "photographers" who won't share their own photos; they offer nothing but word vomit. those who have real talent tend to be the least likely to spew criticism, and when they do, it's in the form of a critique and not just bald-faced negativity.
the world isn't always a happy place, nor should the internet be some idealized version of life, but people should either carry their self-respect with them across mediums or at least have the courage to be a sociopath in real life.
I don't know that it's limited to photography specifically, but there's always that tendency to become really knowledgable about something and then forget where you came from. There was certainly a moment for all of us where we didn't know the difference between f-stops and aperture and shutter speed, lighting, focus techniques, etc. And when the temptation to look down our noses at those that "don't get it" arises, we should remember that.
I still consider myself a beginner in a lot of ways, and I can testify to the forums and comments under articles being really hostile to beginners when the topic seems too "surface level" or "simple". But where else should beginners go to grow their craft, especially when they may not have an opportunity to just "go do" that moment?
My unsolicited two cents. :)
1) It's not limited to photography. There are toxic people in every community, always have been, always will be.
2) The solution is very, very simple. If you don't like negativity and confrontational behavior, just ignore them and don't engage. Boom, problem solved. How hard is that?
exactly.
some people are just negative. yet others just want to change them instead of changing their own outlook. control what you can, observe what you can't. the only person you can truly control is yourself, otherwise you're just a manipulative psychopath. life becomes infinitely easier once you accept that truth.
but of course, someone is going to disagree with you, arguing, "i'm the one that's perfect, so why should i change?"
let's be honest though: the only comment more damaging than "your shit sucks" is "love it!" neither holds any value as a critique while the latter can give a beginner a false sense of achievement.
Dope shot bro
hahaha!
Thanks for sharing this, Alex. I think a good portion of what this toxicity does is not only scare people away from enjoying photography as a hobby, but the constant negativity turns off a lot of the working professionals who have (or had) a true interest in sharing with the community.
If there are no rules then how can you have guidelines in which to give criticism? I truely believe there are no rules and I am not in need of ego stroking or telling me my art is wrong.
There are no "rules," but there is always, "This is what I've found people like and don't like right now" -- tips that have proven successful.
That's better called a "photo-hack" than a "rule," but many of these photo-hacks were "painting hacks" that have been consistently successful for hundreds of years.
Just treat other people the same way you would prefer to be treated.
I Love this article, and thanks again for posting stuff like this Alex!
Be nice, be patient, and treat people well. It's a hard industry. It doesn't seem like there is a lot of middle ground between being totally down on yourself, or on an ego trip. I know I've been both at times, and I'm ashamed of the way I have treated others in the past. My lesson to anyone who listens is stay humble, and appreciate people for who they are. The way I got passed it for the most part was to lose everything, and have to slowly get it back. It tends to strip you of your ego when you have to sell all of your most prized camera gear for nothing just to put some gas in your wife car, or put food on the table for your little ones.
In the end, I think it will always be a problem, but encouraging each other to be a positive force in our community will ultimately make things better. After I had sold my last bit of gear I felt like I was done, lost, who I thought I was was shattered and it was the best thing that's ever happened to me because it forced me to see that I actually loved photography. Now I feel blessed, because I feel undeserving, and I feel like it's a gift rather than an entitlement.
Sometimes the people who are giving this advise, teaching a seminar, or just at the tops in the industry, have lost touch with people just starting.
One topic that comes up often is the amount of new photographers today compared to just 10 years ago. Their response is it has always been that way, I had to go through the same thing when I started. But the fact is they didn't. Just the sear numbers of cameras sold proves that.
As an example, up until about 10 yrs ago there were 3 maybe 4 photographers serving this small are of 120,000 people. Today that same service area has 200+ photographers.
Sometimes, people are just asking for acknowledgement that the influx of new photographers does have an impact The leaders don't see it or feel it because they are not at that level and don't fight that battle.
I believe that there is a solution for every situation. We can't just say it does not exist.
The first problem is photographers trying to sell other photographers. Unless one is approaching a known better photographer for constructive criticism--and that's the "social contract" of the interaction understood by both of them--there is absolutely zero reason ever to expose one's work to other photographers.
I care a lot about what people I'm selling to think of my photography.
I care a fair amount about what well-established artists can tell me about how the people I'm selling to will think of my photography.
I don't give a golly-goddamn what GWAC cares about my photography.
I attended a presentation on dealing with difficult people in the 80's at a Kodak hosted event in Rochester, not much has changed except it easier to be difficult. It is important to learn to get over it when people for whatever reason feel a need to lash out at you.
Thank you for posting this, Alex. I can't help but think that these fundamental questions, pertaining to the community, are important and it is essential that they be brought into the light.
The 'why' is a question that I have been thinking about for quite some time, and I would observe that it is complex, and that the academic literature reflects accordingly, and it is broadly quite speculative.
A couple of superficial observations:
- Normative behavior on social media would appear to be fundamentally different to normative behavior in real life. In the first instance, aggressive (and similar) behaviors are internalized by the individual as being acceptable by virtue of their endemic nature.
Additionally, aggression tends to be met with aggression, and accordingly, the whole thing exists as a part of a feedback loop; and aggressive behavior subsequently becomes conditioned behavior with constant repetition and reinforcement.
Of course, the person at the other end of the screen, is not really a person, they are nothing more than text/object. Accordingly, the empathy that would normally kick in in real life, simply does not occur on social media - the theory is that empathy is a function of mirror neurons.
- There is also the idea (touched on by the Northrups) that, in many cases, the individual forms a direct mental association between a particular brand, piece of equipment, or technique. And accordingly, when that individual perceives that their 'thing' of choice is being criticized, they immediately internalize that, at a fundamental level, as an attack upon them.
As to the 'how to respond to the problem'. In the first instance, I would suggest establishing a code of conduct, which the members have to conform to, accompanied by the clear publication of this code, and followed by strict enforcement by the moderators.
The simple fact is that normative behaviors are self-perpetuating, and will simply not change in the absence of any sort of pressure to do so.
I have to say ... 35 minutes about this subject? Good lord. I watched the first two or three because the Northrups are generally really good at what they do, but I can't imagine how they filled a half hour talking about toxic photographers. What'd I miss?
It was a podcast. It was definitely good and thoughtful enough to listen to while on the treadmill. But I probably wouldn't have stopped my day to watch the whole video.
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There are people way smarter than we are that have been trying to figure out Human Nature. The internet has exacerbated the differences because it's so easy to make a statement and remain anonymous.
On the other hand, there is a complete set of humans that wake up in the morning looking for a way to be offended. Thick skin is something that is going away and that's not good.
A lot of what Tony & Chelsea said is very true. So what to do? Freud couldn't figure it out, we certainly won't.
Great video guys. It's nice to see there is an awareness of these issues from folks actually in the photo community. I shoot as an enthusiast, but I work professionally in a related field, cartographic design. A lot of the background to these fields is very similar, design orientation but with a strong emphasis on technological tools and methods. Lots of "gear" in a sense if you include applications and software. Success is measured in different ways and what works as a map or an image is very subjective. But man are online social communities different. The amount if ego, rough criticism, trolling, and arguing that goes on in photo boards was shock to me coming from the much kinder world of map designers!
I started with BW film and my own darkroom when I was in high school and college, but stopped taking it seriously as a craft for a couple of decades. Now getting back into it and trying to really progress as an enthusiast. But I have actually found myself wondering if I even want to be associated with photography as a craft when I see how photographers interact with each other online. It's appalling sometimes.
I appreciate your taking a stab at making it better, I'm dubious that it will have much effect, but its helpful to see folks at your levels acknowledging the issues and offering some great suggestions. Cheers!
p.s. Tony every time you pet the dog in your lap you looked like a super villain, but like really nice super villain.
I had to stop listening when he complained about people mind-reading, yet he started to mind-read the person he claimed was mind-reading.
This is not limited to photographers. Although I do find many photographers are thin-skinned, jealous, envious, and competitive.
the internet is not the invention of this behavior. Long before the interwebs started, we called these type of people gossips and rumor mongers. Their audience was much more limited before they could write it down and have dozens of people read it, and maybe, just maybe, have someone grab a screen shot and post it in their video.
see what I did here?
Art and photography has a lot of egos. And that’s the base for all this.
Unfortunately, FStoppers community is a toxic one as well. I feel people in here rate waaay to low the pictures of others in general.