As a wedding photographer I was really never interested in the D800. 36mp in ideal light for commercial jobs sounds fantastic but shooting thousands of images in a dark reception hall and having to deal with massive files horrified me. Because of this I purchased a D4 hoping for high ISO performance in a more manageable 16mp file. After I tested the performance of the D4 in low light and finding it was no better than the D3S, I am giving the D800 a second look.
The D2H, D3, D3s, and D4
The Nikon D3 was announced in August of 2007 and was a massive improvement from the Nikon D2 series. In 2009, Nikon announced the Nikon D3s which added about one stop of ISO performance and video functionality. Two years later Nikon released the D4, which many assumed would be a major jump in image quality (at least more significant than the D3 to D3s). Instead, the D4 has major improvements to the hardware, focusing, and video features but according to our test has very little improvement in image quality, if any at all.
D800 ISO performance
Now going back to the D800; the camera has not yet been released to the public, but there are many test shots from the camera floating around the internet. The general consensus seems to be saying that the D800 files will look better than D3 files if they are scaled down from 36mp to 12mp. This means that at 100% the D800 file will look noisier than a D3 file shot at the same ISO, BUT if you print the file or shrink it down for web the D800 file will actually look better than the D3.
If the D3S has approximately 1 stop better ISO performance than the D3 and the D800 will supposedly handle noise "better" than the D3 (when scaled down), why does the D4 cost twice as much? If these assumptions are correct, the difference in ISO performance between the D4 and D800 will be less than one ISO stop.
Is the D4 worth double the price?
Normally you might say that the D4 is worth double because it has a new focusing system, but in this case the D800 has the exact same system. You might say that the D4 has incredible features for videographers, like clean video output, audio monitoring, and lossless video zooming, but the D800 also has these features. I assumed the D4 would be around three stops better in terms of ISO performance but people are claiming that it will be less than one stop. So my question is: "Why then is the D4 $3000 more than the D800?" The fact that it can shoot 11fps? I have never shot more than 3fps in my whole career, so that one improvement has never appealed to me.
I thought it was strange that Nikon released a D800 and completely killed the need for their $8000 D3X. Now I'm beginning to think that the D800 may also kill the D4 for everyone except professional sports photographers. At this point I am going to buy both cameras and test them out before I make a decision. If the D800 really does perform as well as people say, I will be very excited to sell my D4 and get 2 D800s.
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Lee- Wish I have the luxury of getting both the D4 and D800 :-) I pre-ordered the latter due to budget limitations. I know two local photographers here in Jax waiting for their 5DIII and D4. So we're planning to meet-up as soon as we get it and go around town to actually do some testing.
I'm excited to see what all of the tests reveal.
Hey Lee, if you don't want the D4, send it my way :p (jasonlei@live.com.au) having a hard time with my trusty D90.
as long as we're calling dibs on other peoples' used equipment, my D60 could use an upgrade.
Sometimes I don't understand why companies do what they do. Starbucks building stores across the street from each other may one thing (and I get it, they knowingly poach their own customers), but this is something else entirely.
Sometimes starbucks open across the street from each other so a competitor cannot open a store in the location.
I was never a fan of the D4 out of the gate. I instead spent the money on the D800/E duo. I like you am a wedding photographer and my thought process was to use the 800E for formals and all of the "staged" shots and then put it away and shoot the rest of the wedding with my D700/800 combo. Most of the shots would still be on the D700 given the size of the 800 files. The 800 would also be for video. Also doing a lot of product/studio work during the off season I think this will pan out well. I'm really happy to finally see real world tests. Thank you Lee.
Isn't the D800E going to cause issues with formals because you will have moire with all of the fabrics shot at a distance?
I think the D800E is only for scientific or specialized shooting. As many crazy shirts/jackets as I've seen at weddings I would def want the non E version. People were more than happy with the D70 images years ago for formals; 36mp will actually probably cause more problems than it's worth especially if you give clients those files.
The only problem while shooting weddings with 12MP was for group shots with 50+ people. You don't get much detail on faces. For all the other shots it really isn't a problem
I think it will depend on the wedding. I'm guessing that what the men are wearing won't be an issue but I will need to learn what works and what doesn't. It will just be a matter of testing to learn what these new cameras can and can't do well. It might very well boil down to not using the D800E for weddings at all and simply retain it's status as "only" a studio camera. I hope it is more versatile than what is predicted. We will see. Either way I know that having both won't be a waste given the re-sale value of all the new bodies if I choose to move away from the E like you might with the D4.
One thing to consider David, the D800 is slated to be released prior to the D800E, at least per B&H. If you're anxious to start playing, the D800 just might need to bump up a little higher on the consideration list. -e
Capture One solves this :)
I think that alot of photographers commenting on the D800 are missing out on the possible DX and FX lens combinations. Such as using a nikkor 70-200 2.8 for formals in 36 mp glory. Then switching to a 17-55 2.8 for reception, first dance, cake, bouquet, blah, blah, blah. in 15 mp DX crop mode. After all, the majority of those pics are album fillers, not 20x24's. Even so, my D300 is more than capable of making enlargements that size. The D300 at iso 1600 is about equal to a D700 at 6400. pertaining to noise. The D800 is speculated to have better noise control than the D700. This camera could possibly be the best DX D-SLR Nikon has built. The D-800E sounds more like a Fujifilm or Foveron product. Great potential for amazingly sharp photos. But the idea of fixing color shifts & moire quite simply are not worth it. I do not want to add anything else to my workflow. I remember when I first bought the D70. A 1 gb 90x card cost $100. Now, you can buy a 16 gb card for less than $25. 36 mp sounds crazy. So did the 9mp e-900 fujifilm camera that came out just a few years ago. I plan to have this camera for at least 4 years before looking into the D5 future line-up. I can definetly say that 36 mp will be enough in 4 years. Who knows, maybe 16 mp in 4 years will be held in the same regards as 6mp today. So, the question is to buy a D4 (with speed, build & low noise) or D800 (with lighter build, higher MP, pop-up-flash with CLS commander mode). You can't go wrong either way. Buy the cheaper ;)
No. If I buy an FX camera, I sure as hell won't use 1.2 or 1.5 crop modes regularly.
If you want to shoot DX, get a D7000 as backup and be done with it. It costs less, it is smaller and faster.
To me D700 + D7000 is still the best combo for wedding photography. I'd only need the 36mp for group shots.
My guess is that if you shoot the D800 at maximum resolution, your final ISO performance will possibly be better than the D4. Here is my thinking: When you process the noise out of an image, it tends to soften the detail. I would think that since the D800 has 36MP to work with to eliminate the noise, there is more detail there to work with. Once the image is scaled down to say 15MP you should not have much softening of the edges.
I can't believe that will actually work but it will be hilarious if you are right.
Actually when I did that with a Canon MkII's 21mp raw files to match my D700 12mp files that's pretty much what I experienced.
This is true because post-processing adds a nonlinear degree of freedom to the (analog) noise-area trade-off The interesting question is, when do you reach an optimal noise level? That, of course, depends on the quality of the nonlinear noise reduction algorithm. Your thought may well motivate camera manufacturers to increase the pixel count in future designs.
The D4 has other advantages though. The feel of the full body camera is better than a camera with a grip IMO. Little things like remembering the focus point between orientations could mean the difference between getting a shot and missing a shot. Small comfort things like changing the angle of the shutter release so you don't get as fatigued using it. Clean high ISO, while a big thing, isn't the entire picture. I wouldn't rule it out yet.
Maybe. If you are getting fatigued shooting 8 hours then no camera is going to help with that. As for focusing, I find that I still rely on the middle focus more than any other one or any combination of points. When I interviewed the Sports Illustrated guys, I thought they would say they bought D3s's because of the fast 51 point 3D tracking...but they said the fastest focus is always single point center.
As for the feel of the grip, I guess I'll find out tomorrow when I finally pick up my D4. As a traveling wedding photographer, will say I'm not particularly happy about the HUGE battery charger. It's tough enough packing 3 cameras and 5 lenses and speedlights for a flight but that charger just scares me.
Call me crazy or overly confident, but at this point I put my complete trust in myself with prosumer DSLRs (I'm currently shooting with D7000s and D300ss), so missing a shot isn't something I really think about with the newest cameras. I was pretty happy with my D700 before I sold it and at this point it really comes down to having better video features in these cameras, better audio, and pushing myself to get more creative with the photos I take.
Just did some test D3s vs D800. Took raw images from image-resource at ISO 12800. I only set in Lightroom 4: Luminance - 45 to both images. Then exported them as JPEG and both set 12mpx size in export option. Left D3s and Right D800. And zoomed in 2:1 so i guess this is 200%
D4 appears to be about 1 stop better... I think I'm going D800s
Lee, I think Nikon was clear from the beginning, the D4 wasn't made to be better at HI ISO than the D3s, it was to be better at Video AND a better Dynamic Range at LOW ISO with 16MP instead of 12MP.
That's basically what they did, DR is better at low ISO from all the sample I can watch, Video is Awesome and at HI ISO, it's pretty freaking good.
The speed of this camera is just perfect for all sport photography and who ever don't have time to do anything else than upload wireless to their laptop and sent the pictures to their agency.
No I think the D4 is a SUPERB camera but it wasn't made for Wedding photographer. It was made for SPORT and Paparazzi like photographers.
I think Nikon needs to bring a third FX camera that would fit the Wedding bassin.
We have Sport, Studio, we need another one for Weddings and Average all around camera.
FX 21-24 MP
FPS 5-6
1080p with 720p 60 FPS
51 Pts Focus
1 CF and 1 SD slots
HDR with Panorama feature
Face detection
ISO 100-6400
Get the D4 so you don't end up looking like some stay at home mom that decided to get into photography. Or get the D800 and be prepared to hear, "Oh yeah I have that camera too, and I shoot newborns with it."
I've been shooting weddings for the last year on D7000s so the shame can't get any worse
I shot for years on a Rebel. I learned to not let gear determine how I saw myself. I also tried not to compare myself to others.
Now you know I laughed right? Well one thing is for sure, moms don't ever use vertical grips.
This video explains why. Haha.
So my tip for the day is, to LOOK pro, use a vertical grip because moms don't use dem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDFCMHLtNl8&feature=g-user-u&context=G206f6a2UCGXQYbcTJ33bBwVqwirT0eLSkxlTtVNPJO7-8vlPo0E8
D7000 is a hell of camera for weddings.
I still shoot weddings with D90's. I often see guests with a 5DII or a D3.
With good lenses and off-camera flashes, it doesn't do much difference which camera you're using.
Also guests are more relaxed in front of a DX camera + 85mm 1.4 or 35mm 1.8 + pocket wizard than in front of a D3 + 70-200 or 24-70 with on camera flash.
That's actually what I use now. 2 D7000's. Decent lenses and sb-700's on stands and I work it man!
Goes to show you how good the 7000 is. It seems the D800 is going to create more processing to achieve the same result as the D4. 75mb raw files.. ouch. D4 is maybe worth more because it saves time (is money).
Your comments about Moms are offensive. You sound a little threatened. You can't judge a photographer based on when in their life they started shooting.
I did post process both of your raw files Lee and didnt see all that much of a difference. Yes you are correct that there is more contrast out of the camera on the D3s but it was the same thing I experience moving from the D700 to the D3S as I thought the images were flat on the D3S when I first got it. After altering the settings to 7 or 8 sharpening and one bump up to contrast I was happy with the D3S. So far to me I'm just finding that the default setting of the D4 is just softer. Joe McNally did mention last month on his blog the images out of the camera so make the skin look creamier if that's the term he used.
But none the less for a wedding photographer or sports photographer if the noise levels are the same on the D4 as the D3s to me, just the faster or better focusing at an -ev 2 makes it worth it with all the bells and whistles.
PS. I did post on LR4....and copied the develop settings and pasted it on the other photo and exported it.
Mind you I'm also waiting on my D4 to come in so I'm hoping it's just it's more of a default setting issue as far as the softness you , mentioned is concerned.
OK, same test but with D4 vs D800 and exported as 16mpx:
what is up with that second image with the paintbrush and the chart. The right image looks way too sharp. Is that really D800?
Yes Lee i was also surprised, my guess it's because of the high MP, retains more detail. Also look at the red rope on D800 a bit more detail retained. Im just curious if D800 can retain that detail then D800E will do better whit out AA-Filter. Well this is my guess...
if you email me these examples I'll throw them in the post. lee@fstoppers.com
Or you can just grab them from here http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/nikon-d800A7.HTM, here http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D3S/D3SA7.HTM and here http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d4/nikon-d4A7.HTM
I think he knows about this website :)
Sent you these images.
I've read the user manual of D800 and it says that it's recommended to shoot on tripod through "Live View", because you need to get the mirror up in order to get the sharpest image. Even the movement of the mirror can effect the image in D800 ! plus if you want the kill that resolution, you have to buy one of the recommended lenses listed in same user manual !!! I want to upgrade to FF cameras, I have D7000 and I hope D400 will be in the middle between D4 and D800. correct me if I'm wrong! cheers!
if you want FF i don't thing Nikon will make D400 a FF, but everything is posible, time will tell :)
I think I will keep my D7000 instead of selling it and buy D800. I bet they will be a great couple. :p
thanks ..
I also have D7000 was thinking the same thing getting D800 :)
Mirror slap causing blur is common in all cameras though. So you'll get the sharpest image with any mode that delays the mirror movement.
good to know that, there's a "Mirror-up" mode in D7000, and I hope D800 has the same feature. However, I don't think that D800 has "Mirror-Up" mode otherwise why would they recommend to shoot through "Live View" ?!
There's already been so many talks about this on Photo.net. One example: http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00a48r
Then why not get a D700? Of course you'll only use the full resolution with the sharpest lenses available. It's the same if you'd have a 6MP camera. I've noticed a major loss in resolution on my D700, when comparing lenses. A bad lens is a bad lens. And people have used tripods and mirror up, for landscape stuff for a long time. That's just Nikon's way to be safe from lawsuits, just like the "don't eat this" stickers on all toys.
If you compared the D800 without mirror up on a tripod, against a D3 or whatever - the D800 will give more resolution, and a better print.
The D7000 you have, got about the same pixel size as the D800. So shooting it on a tripod without mirror up, should give around the same loss in sharpness as you're saying the D800 will get.
There's already been so many talks about this on Photo.net. One example: http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00a48r