We’ve all heard the saying "buy cheap, buy twice," but does this mean that we should only buy the more expensive equipment? I'm sure we've all purchased some equipment at some time and ended up wishing we had paid a little more for a better piece of equipment. To me, the word 'cheap' should never be used to describe photography equipment.
Daniel Norton is producing a new series of videos, and in this video, he addresses buying cheap photography equipment. In the video, Norton discusses lighting equipment and how he believes the more expensive equipment is better than the cheaper equipment. I enjoy Norton's videos and think Norton has some great insight into the photography world. Norton makes some valid points, but I think he incorrectly mixes "cheap" with "value." Billionaire Warren Buffett said it best: "Price is what you pay, value is what you get." Cheap implies a direct relationship between low cost and low quality; however, value is a ratio of quality or benefit divided by the cost. So, a high-value item could either be an item with good benefits divided by a low cost or an item with extremely high benefits divided by a higher cost. I'm not here to defend any particular item, but to merely equate quality of an item to its price is short-sighted.
So, let’s hear about your good value equipment in the comments below. I’ll start it off with my belief that my D500 is one heck of a good value.
My Profoto B1 kit is the best four grand I've ever spent. "Yeah but you could have bought 497 Youngnuos for that." I've been beating on my B1s almost daily for over two years and they work like the day I got them. While a ton of photog friends have replaced their (insert knockoff brand here) a bunch of times. I get it, I bought cheap stuff back when I was starting out, but if you can afford it, you get what you pay for more often than not.
Yes, my B1 and B2 kits are one of the best things I have bought.
Me too, both the B1 and B2's.
Why is it that "a ton" of the "photog friends" of Profoto gear owners seem to be replacing their gear "a bunch of times", when the rest of Godox and "insert knockoff brand here" users seem to be having no problems whatsoever with theirs?
Dunno. The friends I refer to are fellow interior/archi and RE folks, and use the shit out of their gear on a daily basis. Some of the same gave me shit when I popped for the Profotos. To each their own. For the last few years I've been buying the best I can afford. It's worked out pretty good so far. Cheers.
The fact that you still use the term "knock off" means you are more toward brand than value.
One can buy 2 Godox AD600 PROs for just under the price of 1 Profoto B1X. Is the "quality" differential of the Profoto equivalent to the cost differential?
In my opinion, not only no, but hell no.
If the prospect of customer service is heavy on your mind, go Flashpoint from Adorama.
If dependability weighs heavy on your mind, get the 2 AD600s. You'll have a spare and will still have spent less. Plus, as a bonus, you'll have an extra 100ws power per light for your troubles.
If the prospect of being viewed as less "professional" because you're not using the expensive stuff weighs heavy on your mind, I'm sorry. I can't help you.
Daniel's cut at PCB lights aside, his argument had much more merit 5 years ago. In today's day and age with the advent of the Godox ecosystem (not to mention Yongnuo speed lights), it's starting to sound more and more absurd.
In my opinion, of course.
I still dig Daniel Norton, though :)
I tend to agree. He makes it sound very cut and dry, but there is more to it then that and I tend to find the best value in mid to mid/high range products. The only problem I have had with equipment at a shoot was a flash trigger that would get flaky when it got hot. I just stuck my Metz on the camera and used it to trigger the strobes.
Mark James, yeah "best value" is nearly always in the high-mid range of almost everything, particularly when profitability is the defied goal.
How many of us drive the most expensive vehicles to a gig? Maybe they are more reliable...but are they that much more reliable to be worth the damage they'll do to the business cash flow?
It may not be apparent to people in this commercial and wannabe-commercial realm of photography, but there are thousands of retail (consumer) portrait photographers, including most of the top names, who don't use Broncolor or Profoto. They've been using lights that don't even get mentioned on FStoppers, like Photogenic.
Well said.
If you look at the cost of labor in Sweden compared to China you know why Profoto is so much more expensive then Godox.
Profoto fall down and break just as well as anything else, but are expensive to replace.
He talks about how others are payed by chineese, I think Profoto probably gave him his gear to show off. I on the other hand pay. I would get Profoto if it would make.my clients happy and pay more, but my Godox gear works just fine. All the time.
We have been buying stuff from European and American companys. Made in China. And these companies take the profit. But now also Chinese brands are emerging. And we get the discount. Even Hasselblad was bought up of a Chinese company.
His rant is noncence. Proud and ignorant.
Purchase pocet wizard but never tried anything.else:)
He stated in his live stream the other day that Profoto does indeed send him lights and modifiers when he didn't even ask for them. He just mentioned them in a video and they sent him some modifiers.
And not even once he ever use a disclaimer that the equipment is given rather than bought.
As with everything in life, it depends. Cheap vs. value is something you need to evaluate in every case. Profoto vs. Godox is not the same as Windows vs. Mac, Gitzo vs. RRS vs. -insert China knockoff name here-. It depends on the product, the use and the need. There are tremendous values out there, and sometimes you just need to pay up. It is a balancing act, and it depends on many factors.
Someone has already posted that this was an excellent video, for 5 years ago. Fact is, five years ago the Chinese knock-offs were very cheaply made and were inferior to the higher end equipment.
One statement he made in the video sums it up, he said "I know, I've been doing this for a really long time". Sometimes us old guys get stuck in the past just a bit, we go to things that have always worked for us, all while the technology and advancements change around us and we never notice.
Let me give you an example. There was a time (60's and 70's) when Japan started sending their cars over here. Everyone said, "Oh, they are cheaper for sure, but not as well made as Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Nothing to worry about." They were partially right. At the time they were cheaper made but they should have been something to worry about. Those Japanese cars (now Nissan, Toyota, Lexus, Acura) got better and better. While all the "old guys", remembering the 1960's, continued to say, "nothing to worry about...". TODAY: Ford and GM cars are the cheaper models and the Japanese models may be better built, better equipped, more advanced and last longer.
Bill Wells--LOL, I distinctly recall in college seeing a Honda Civic on the street and wondering, "What the hell is that?"
Rice burners succeeding in the US of A? Preposterous!
I agree to a certain degree. I own both godox and profoto. I personally think that the AD200 Is the best light in the world for what it gives you as far as power and portability. I do think Godox is amazing with all of the value you get for the money but will admit that when you seriously need reliability that Profoto and Broncolor are the best in the business. And I seriously hate to admit this because I would try to save money and paying for these brands seriously hurt the pockets.
I’ve had the AD200 fail on me or stop firing off during a wedding processional (indoor winter wedding) it was over heating and I was not doing rapid fire. As well during a first dance. I thought both times it was maybe me doing something wrong but a third time I can see the thermostat icon on it when my assistant showed me it.
The only difference in my opinion between the two brands is the profoto and broncolor doesn’t overheat. When they stop working is because the battery is dead. With godox it can overheat and stop firing. And yes, it happened to me last month with the v860.
The B1’s I’ve had since the fall of 2015 still work as the day I got them and am still surprised I have yet to replace a bulb.
Sucks. But I guess you have to pay for reliability. I wish I didn’t. But experiencing this first hand I do believe what this guy in the video says. Except for pocketwizards. I think Godox has great remotes. Actually they are way way better as I have them as receivers on my profoto b1’s with a sync cord. No misfires.
When Broncolor released hss they did so with a Godoy made trigger:)
Yes Godox have overheating protection that hit in with hss that is specified in the user manual. Even the pro versions. I wounder if Profoto can do hss with no limits?
If so that would be an argument.
AD 200 is nice but you fast need to put on full power, I have two in that double holder, that is good. Still the pro version have much better led light,
The Godox is simply counting shots per minute to determine when to turn on the overheating control. You can reset it.
Take the ad200 off TTL. You can do that with the TCM button (just like ProFoto). So take one shot in TTL then press the button and it changes the flash to manual at the last TTL power used. Now shoot away.
if you are a spray and pray shooter or shoot in TTL mode the protection may kick in.
pfff.. hmmm...pffff... bzzzz... kaching!... money!
With no experience with other brands ( by the way, not all 3rd party brands are cheap, nor everything is sub-par and with lower build quality )...
I tend to judge photographers by their portfolio.
Well, my friend Daniel Norton.... so much money down the drain there buddy.
You've got the best gear. Bravo!
You also have a... mediocre ( if not sub-par ) portfolio.
That's too bad.
More words than action.
Sad...
I didn't watch the video. Don't want to give them more views/watch time since so many people will have varying perspectives on this matter. And the perspectives may not be "wrong."
My nearly twenty five years in this industry has taught me that you are right. My lighting kits consists of Profoto Acute and Kino Flo’s because they work and are very consistent. My PW X’s fire every time and Capture One has never failed me when shooting tethered. My clients may not understand or appreciate the investment I’ve made but they appreciate my consistency in delivering images. And yes, those little red bands on my lens give me confidence that the images will have nice colors with pleasant contrast and pleasing bokeh. They are tools, very nice tools and work at a level that I expect.
A lot of things can change in 25 years. For a bit of perspective, 25 years ago, Kodak was still a respectable company in the general photography industry and Bowens was still around as an institution in the photographic lighting industry.
And how does that pertain to my response?
It pertains to the fact that your 25 years of experience effectively means nothing in terms of evaluating today's technological landscape. With the rate of change in the industry, even 5 years of experience would hardly apply as a reasonable appeal to authority.
Those little red bands on your lenses a decade ago might have meant unsurpassed quality and dependability. Today, they only mean that you paid a premium for lenses that might not perform as well as cheaper third party options.
The reality of today's market is that paying more does not necessarily equal better quality or reliability.
Don’t take it personally, over the past twenty five years I’ve gone from 35mm film to medium format to digital an upgraded as DSLR’s have improved. I love how strobe kits have gotten smaller and lighter it am not ready to go battery powered yet. Does that sound like I’m using twenty five year old gear?
No, but it sounds like the point you made about what you've learned through your 25 years of experience is still irrelevant to the topic at hand and only mentioned as a logically flawed way to lend more credence to your agreement with the message of the video poster.
Likewise, no offense to you either and don't take it personally. It's a pretty common thing that people do often without realizing it.
My lenses don't have a red ring but if I have any trouble I go to NPS and get problems solved. And I get my whole stuff surviced once a year without paying. That's why I don't use cheap lenses even if they might as good as mine! They have to work!
Your gear needs to be serviced once a year to stay functional? That sounds rough... It also sounds like you're suggesting that you can't get Sigma or Tamron lenses serviced or something (you can).
As for the NPS thing, not everyone qualifies for NPS—even some people who are shooting professionally—so that's another beast entirely.
The Chinese brands have come an extremely long way from what he's talking about. I wonder how recently he's given companies like Godox a fair shake because they're incredible values and also extremely reliable, too. It gets more and more difficult to justify purchasing premium lighting equipment from the likes of Profoto and Broncolor with each iteration of these brands that he's maligning.
Don't get me wrong, give me an unlimited budget and I'd shell out for a Broncolor system, but it certainly wouldn't be because there was a shot that I thought I couldn't get without it. It would be because of the bling factor the same way I would probably buy a Ferrarri and a Leica M-A if money was not an issue.
I can understand why super high end photographers that work with huge budgets and charge accordingly would shell out for high end lighting equipment, but I think that it's a massive waste of money for the vast majority of working professionals.
The point of diminishing returns for lighting equipment in photography comes pretty quickly.
True, but what happened in the case of Pocket Wizard is that the cheap guys got better and better and eventually forced Pocket Wizard to lower their ridiculous prices when it was clear they were not the only game in town. So, supporting those other guys resulted in benefits for all consumers.
The gear does matter but you cannot throw it under one bold statement - "What is cheap is not good !!!" I am a Nikon photographer, and my assignment dictates me what light sets I use. My go to is Profoto as wel when it comes to portraiture, I love B1 and D1 and I am very happy with price-quality I am getting out of them. And for modifiers Elinchrom Rotalux series is no brainer !!! Love them! But on the other side when it comes to events, weddings and travel assignments I do trust my flashes... and believe it or not I do run Youngnuo not Nikon. Why? Simple, when you get a $600 SB5000 knocked down from stand by a drunk bankman at the event, you feel it, if a $60 Youngnuo drops down, I do not even think about it! They do work the very same way as Nikon SB series and since I only shoot any lights even B1 only in M mode without TTL I do not need fancy flashes for events and travel. Btw, I have full set of Nikons SB with 3 pocket Wizards sets from previous years if I want to use them, but those Youngnuo remotes work way better then PW and I did not use PW for last 3 years !!!! China companies got their stuff together last couple years and Godox is a very good example of those... And I still run PCB Einstein 640 when I need to freeze motion with more juice :) over my Profoto heads since for that PCB is simple better... So for acertain job you need a certain tool but I do not agree that cheap gear is always bad gear... Test it, if it works for you, go for it :)... Happy shooting everyone :)
I watched all of one minute of this video and switch it off when he started going on about cheap Chinese blah blah blah.
I buy Chinese made speedlites not because they are cheap, but because they are reliable and I don't care who makes them as long as they are reliable and easy to use.
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without sounding like a douch (know it all), i think most of my equipment has been a good value overall. sure, there have been some umbrellas, bags, tripods, reflectors, and other ish from wppi impulse purchases made while slightly hung over that have come and gone, but for the most part, most of my equipment has been (still is) a good value... customer service, resale value, durability, etc...
perceived value is a thing... i say this cos it seems like the video/write-up are stuck on real value.
my grandfather use to have a single whisky drink every day upon arriving home from work. one day a friend of my dad's said something about his drink and whisky collection, something related to cost i think. "... a man's money spent on his hobbies are his own business..." later that evening he challenged "every swinging dick" to a foot race... haha!
my .02 cents is buy what you can, when you can, and have fun with it... if you didn't buy it to have fun, then just use it. sometimes it's the old experiment, you can have a cupcake now, or you can have two cupcakes later.
Sure, let me get advice from the guy driving while not only on the phone but recording himself ranting to it.
"For the people that think that their cheap gear is just as good or whatever it's just surely that you've either watched way too many videos of people who probably getting paid by those companies promoting it or you just don't understand the physics of light."
Hard to take Daniel seriously with that type of comment. He even said in the beginning of the video that those were the types of things people leave on his videos that annoyed him.
If I remember correctly he told me in the comments to the video that he hadn't used the Godox lights before which didn't help his credibility in that they weren't as good as the lights he uses. I've personally used Profoto, Alienbees, Einstein, Jinbei, Yongnuo, and Godox. I've seen the pros and cons of those lights and it wasn't until I used Godox that I saw a great system that was affordable.
There was a time that those Godox lights didn't match the color accuracy of Profoto but that time has passed with their latest pro model lights (AD600 & AD400 Pro). I can agree the build quality still isn't as great, but I've dropped some of my Godox lights hard and they still work fine.
"Don't be like 'you know what, I'm just gonna be cheap and buy the cheap ones cuz I think it's just as good.' Eh, it's not."
Try Godox and see what you feel afterwards first before making blank statements like that. I won't stop you or others from spending more than double the price on a strobe that offers less.
The Godox AD600 Pro has more power, better color accuracy, faster recycle times, more battery life, and more affordable ($900 light, $70 transmitter) than the Profoto B1X ($2,100 light, $420 transmitter). And despite that price I'm sure you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I took the same photo with both lights.
Buy the gear that YOU want and can afford, but don't be smug about it.
Yes, keep taking your eyes off the road to look at your phone while driving. Seems like a safe and responsible thing to do.
I just bought a nikon d800e for about 1k and boy i tell yuh i beleive that's a heck of a good deal right there. I took this photo with a nikon 18-35mm f3.5-5.6 (also great value) of the devon tower in okc a couple rainy nights ago.
Leica M4, only slightly younger than me. Lenses, same. They never disappoint and will probably last another half century. And for digital: a Leica X Vario. Insane value, like having five Leica primes for the price of one, with the body thrown in.