Earlier today Lauren wrote a humorous, opinionated, post about ‘Morning After’ Boudoir Photography. This post was met with great hostility and inappropriate personal attacks towards Lauren. Is Fstoppers too big now to have a voice? Are we only allowed to report news stories without expressing opinions? Did we go to far or did commenting get out of hand?
I started Fstoppers with Patrick less than 3 years ago and since then we have grown to something much bigger than I had ever hoped. We now have a huge team of talented writers and receive over 2 million page views each month. Patrick and I have given our writers freedom to basically post about whatever they like whether that is a standard re-post or a entertaining original opinion piece.
What started all of this?
If you didn't read Lauren's post, she basically claims that she is against 'morning after’ photography because people are sharing these pictures on Facebook and then hanging them in public places around their homes. She specifically says she doesn't have a problem with the pictures in general, she just believes they should be private:
"In this video from Good Morning America, the bride states she plans to have the images framed and put up all over their room. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with doing that – your bedroom should be your sacred place for just the two of you. The room and all its decorations are just for you and your significant other. What I can’t grasp is why you would want something so sacred to be strewn all over the internet for your coworkers, perhaps boss, friends, and relatives to see."
Whenever you write an opinion piece like this you are going to have some people who agree with you and others that do not. It appears that in the case of Lauren's post, the majority of readers disagreed with her. However, the most interesting part to me is to see how people respond to articles they don't agree with. Let's first look at an opinion piece that I recently wrote that the majority of people DID agree with: Why Bad Wedding Photographers Have Made The Industry Better. Aside from a few people on Facebook who claimed they would never come to Fstoppers again because I was being "mean" (I'm not sure they actually read my article), the majority of comments were very positive: "Great post, Lee. One of the better ones I've seen on this topic/issue" "Awesome post!!!", "Thank you so much for writing this Lee." "Damn, you guys have been cranking out some seriously good reads. Thanks Lee." "Can we please have more articles about photography and less op-ed pieces from the office manager?" "Sorry but this article is total crap... People have eluded to this above but, I'm just going to come out and say it. This is NOT what I visit FS for." "You are most definitely a prude. You are also being very judgemental of something that clearly doesn't affect your target market. Whatever the client wants, there will most certainly be someone willing to take pictures of it and get paid for doing so. For you to say that a bride is "vain and self-loving" for wanting steamy photos of herself and the one she loves is honestly horrible and downright nasty.As for some critique of your portfolio, I find out-of-focus, grainy, shots with crooked horizons to be more offensive since your clients probably paid you for your time."
Nobody wrote anything like "I don't come to Fstoppers for opinions, why don't you stick to news." Why? Because the majority of people agreed with me. Now let's look at the responses to Lauren's post in which more people disagreed with her. Here are a few of the comments that stood out to me:
I want to make it clear that disagreeing with a writer and making a comment about it great, we want you to do that. I LOVE respectful debates and also appreciate when someone can sway my opinion by making a great argument. I simply want to point out how quickly things can get out of hand when people disagree with something they read online. Maybe you thought that Lauren was disrespectful towards those who do enjoy this type of photography or she was unfair to the photographers who are hired to shoot these jobs, that's fine! I would probably agree with you. Writing that in the comments would make your point. Attacking Lauren personally or opinion pieces in general is not a way to argue nor behave, in my opinion.
Most people only comment if they have something negative to say
One of the most frustrating things about running Fstoppers (or anything on the internet) is that most people will not comment unless they are mad and have something negative to say. My post about bad wedding photography has been viewed 20,000 times now and has 28 comments. Lauren's post has been up for only a few hours and has been viewed 9,500 times and has 60 comments. The other unfortunate thing that you have to remember is that controversy sells. Lauren's post will probably become the most popular post of the entire week BECAUSE so many people commented negatively about it and then other people decide to comment to attack the attackers in the comments. Our most popular post of all time was The iPhone Fashion Shoot and the controversy of that post made it successful. People LOVE to tell me how terrible of a photographer I am and how I am lying to people about gear not being important and then there are others that LOVE to attack those commenters and stick up for me. The sad truth is that I bet the majority of people who read Lauren's post DID agree with her and then they moved on to the next post. In many cases it's only the people who take offense to an article that have the energy to write a comment.
All of that being said I want everyone to know that we really appreciate each of you being readers and our goal is not to offend any of you but with around 500,000 different photographers coming to our website each month, we are bound to ruffle some feathers. Please take 5 seconds and check a box in the poll below so that we can get a realistic idea of our readers opinion of Lauren's post.
I'm new to the site, and one of the reasons I plan on reading more is because of op-ed pieces. I want opinions, thoughts, etc. I don't want just another gear blog. As long as the arguments and opinions are well thought out (which I think Lauren's was, and I agree with her) then I enjoy reading them and consider op-ed pieces a big plus.
Just don't start doing click-bait pieces. They work well in the short term... then you just turn into Gawker.
I agreed with Lauren's point regarding the lack of taste but it was at the best of times a painful read. She got all riled up to see such distasteful photography, I think that's the issue at hand in a way. The medium (and execution thereof) is the message. Sex/intimacy is beautiful, but if you shoot it poorly it looks like porn.
The same applies to writing. You may have something great to say but if you write it poorly, if you fail to entertain whilst you put forward your agenda and the overall message we read is how stupid you think these people (everyone involved) are then you loose.
The main cause of all the anger here is that fstoppers has earned the permission of the tribe. That permission is abused when selfishly written articles are posted, or articles which try to leverage off current events and news for the sake of getting more eyeballs on the site (far too many in the past 6 months).
First the positive (and most important): I love FS and will keep coming here!!! Great work and I enjoy it very much. Please also continue writing opinionated pieces, love those, even if I don't agree!
Second, in general people don't understand that something can be an opinion, especially if it is written down. It is very easy for people to misinterpret written text. One option to solve this:
Start doing opinionated VIDEO pieces!
People really understand the nuances better when they also see the person before their eyes. This is just psychology. In addition, you are a video blog and not a writers blog, right ;-)
I don't mind opinion pieces at all - however for websites like Fstoppers I appreciate it if they present both sides of the argument.
But the article in question came over as Over-opinionated - it wasn't a discussion, it was a tirade. The language in the article itself was strong and aggressive - and so it's just to be expected that comments were the same.
It was just too - I'm right, they're wrong.
Not an article style I hope to see again on here.
PS Not read through all the comments in original.
First, I didn't read any of the comments above. This is actually something I wanted to say yesterday and I think the point I'm going to make contributed to the poor reader response. I found the opinion piece very hard to read. I was struggling to follow Lauren's argument against morning after sessions. In the end, I just found the piece confusing.
I think others struggled also, and the piece may have come off as a pure rant. A good opinion piece should have a thesis and an argument. I certainly welcome opinion on Fstoppers, but it still needs to be opinion and not pure rant. Save rant for funny, snide jokes woven into the content. I mean I could rant for days about awful cameras, but no one wants to hear my opinion of Canon ;-)
Keep it up Fstoppers! If we can't have opinions about where the industry is going, we are on the losing end. Continue publishing great articles like laureens'
I think being site originators your not new to the whole "comments" sections.. To have a knee jerk reaction to 2 or 3 articles that take a beating is a tad much. FStoppers, great site. I've seen and read things here I probably would have never been thinking about, let alone exposed to.
But expect the unexpected, if her post generated that much dust... so be it. Dust off, remount and move on.
If you weren't doing good work and people didn't like the content, they would stay away. Pure & Simple.
On a more personal note, I didn't care for her article in the least. It was confusing, and at times... Just a bit prudish (IMO) and if it took a hit or 2, I understand that.
Just look at the poll, 817 positiv and 55 negative at this writing.. thats 93,69% Positiv and 6,31% negativ.
id say you have a strong case that the majority did like it or just doesnt bother...
Keep it up! :)
i honestly dont think fstoppers should validate what they post with another post. just post it and let it be. weather people trash it in the comments or love it in the comments, you cant please every one all the time. just keep that content coming.
my 2 cents. spend it wisely
keep doing good work fstoppers!!! Trolls can go back to their caves!
I can't say I side either way about whether it is a trend that needs to die...but I will say that I enjoy original pieces here much more than the bland news reporting side about what gear is getting released.
Editorials are just not going to be found everywhere. If I wanted to get straight news, I would only go to petapixel, but I want BTS and opinion because it usually provides the most honest take. A great example is the Videos about the fake Nikon grips that were floating around on the market. Great info, and not something other news outlets are going to cover, and it even gives you a few tips to not fall into the pit.
Keep up what you are doing.
Good Article!!! I read Lauren's Post and thought it was good. Opinion articles are a good thing.
Sooo... why not just do what you've done before with content and segment your Op-Ed articles onto a different tab? Equipment, BTS, Education or Op-Ed tabs would work just fine. If people want to rant on a piece, they can and it won't affect the "integrity" of the site. Yeah, you'll still get trolls-aplenty, but after a while they'll find no one listens and move on to the next comment spotlight where they can find other haters. Either way traffic is traffic—positive or negative and I believe the old adage is still true when it comes to Web sites: any press is good press.
One more thing... how has Lauren felt about this newfound attention?
I unfortunately have to agree... people seem to have the very unfortunate tendency to be negative by default. I can't say I really felt moved one way or another by this article... I just enjoyed reading/viewing it. I personally consider Fstoppers my greatest find of the year, website wise. I have no idea how you guys collate so much incredible content on a daily basis but I love it!! thx! -m
I blame trolls for this whole kerfluffle.
I blame the trolls for this whole kerfluffle.
In Lauren's defense, I too think "morning after" photography is super awkward and weird.
I'm going to relate an experience here that will sound off-topic, but addresses this issue directly. Bear with me.
Years ago, I worked in admissions for a small liberal-arts college here in Memphis. One question I heard *at least* once a day from parents was about the party/drinking/greek culture on campus, and whether or not their child could avoid that culture and still have a good campus experience. Nevermind some of the obvious baggage tied up in a question like that - my response to the parents was this: When you're on a campus with only 1500 people, you will - at some point - cross paths with damn near everyone, which was (and is) precisely the point. Your campus experience would be impacted in ways small and large by those who had everything in common and those who had nothing in common with one another, and all points in between. If you want your child to spend four years surrounded by only those who think and act like them, you need to find a bigger pool to swim in.
Well, the internet is, quite obviously, the ultimate big pool. The gradual degradation of what passes for debate and critical thinking in our culture over the last 50 years has kicked into hyperdrive along with the internet in the last 10-15 years, in my opinion. Those who freaked out over this 'Morning After' post illustrate this point perfectly. Either I agree with you (which, let's face it, really means to the typical reader that *you* agree with *me* - but that's a whole 'nother post), which means that you're either worthy of lavish praise or don't merit comment at all... Or you're a @#^ing idiot. There doesn't seem to be much in-between anymore.
As for me? I love the work I see posted on F-Stoppers, and I realize that a) whether I love it or hate it, it's not *my* site, and b) if I really don't like a certain post... I CAN GO ELSEWHERE. Those of you who stooped to ad hominem attacks - get over yourselves and your delusions of relevance... and move the F on.
I'm curious to know whether you purchased the rights to use the Ziggy cartoon you posted with this article, especially since you've cropped out the bottom portion where the author's signature appears in the original image.
keep doing this great job! dont waste time fighting with bitter people.
best regards from chile
It honestly makes me sick to read the comments on here sometimes.
Regardless of whether you agree with her opinion or not, respect the writer and argue your point like an educated adult -- which the majority of these people are. Being on the internet doesn't mean you get free reign to be a complete moron. Lauren (I assume) spent a great deal of time writing that article and I think she did a good job.
In short: People need to grow up. She wrote an article. You disagree. Life sucks. FS is not a news organization, they don't claim or need to report straight facts all the time. You wouldn't visit here if they did.
Good idea with the poll. As you can see (overwhelmingly), the majority of readers are likely level-headed adults that have more productive things to do than pick internet fights. I'm rarely ever compelled to comment on something I disagree with, because I don't see the point, and feel like it is a waste of time (and I honestly don't think I'm going to change anyone's mind on the internet).
Things that inspire me, drive me, and make me think - those are the things I DO feel compelled to comment on, regardless of the context. Why? Because THAT'S THE CONTENT I WANT MORE OF. I want to let the creator know I enjoyed it, and that their hard work did not go unnoticed.
I'm all for civil discourse (when it is civil), but get a grip people.
Keep up the good work guys...
I'm just amazed with the manners and how rude some people are towards the team of Fstoppers (or many others). Should I say education starts at home without being disrespectful ?
Questions:
- Would you write to a newspaper to tell them you don't like their articles as a reader ?
- Would you complain in a superstore because some of their products are not to your liking ? (I.e : a vegetarian or vegan complaining that the store sells meat, or fish etc.)
- Would you enter a sex shop if you are not a consumer, to tell them your thoughts and be rude to them ?
- Would you criticize a restaurant for their menu ?
So... why would you criticize Fstoppers for their content ? If you don't like it, just pass your way, or take what is good for you and leave the rest no ? Please, to all you moaners and ranters, pay the team their due respect for everything they do for us.
Close your eyes 1 minute, review all you have read and seen on Fstoppers, value it in terms of what it would have cost you to learn that knowledge if you had to take classes, or use your precious time to find it all and then...
...Go for the paradigm shift and be grateful, it's all here, it's a given, for free, a community based not on financial terms, paying for it, but on knowledge and appreciation of what we all like, arts, photography, technique, discovery, culture... a bit of it all.
Thank you FSTOPPERS, and thank you to all of you contributors, for your time, hard work, education, will to share... you are all working really hard for us here, on top of your jobs and family lives, taking some of your precious time away from your loved ones for the sake of a bunch of unappreciative, selfish, never content moaners... and the others :)
To be honest with you I didn't comment the post but : I really was surpised by this one. For me, it was one of the best. Definitly! Keep doing this!
As told Richard few comments ago, I didn't even try to enter in the debate when I saw the comments. The experience I had in the past shows that trying to debate on internet is a waste of time. Nobody change his mind. Most of the time it even reinforce their points of view... so I just let them speak without a care...
Anyway keep doing FStoppers team! I love your job!
I absolutely loved her piece and actually I thought of re-posting myself. As you said, I read it I basically kept reading other feeds and moved on. Thank you for giving us a chance to express our support for this post Lee!
- arturo