Earlier today Lauren wrote a humorous, opinionated, post about ‘Morning After’ Boudoir Photography. This post was met with great hostility and inappropriate personal attacks towards Lauren. Is Fstoppers too big now to have a voice? Are we only allowed to report news stories without expressing opinions? Did we go to far or did commenting get out of hand?
I started Fstoppers with Patrick less than 3 years ago and since then we have grown to something much bigger than I had ever hoped. We now have a huge team of talented writers and receive over 2 million page views each month. Patrick and I have given our writers freedom to basically post about whatever they like whether that is a standard re-post or a entertaining original opinion piece.
What started all of this?
If you didn't read Lauren's post, she basically claims that she is against 'morning after’ photography because people are sharing these pictures on Facebook and then hanging them in public places around their homes. She specifically says she doesn't have a problem with the pictures in general, she just believes they should be private:
"In this video from Good Morning America, the bride states she plans to have the images framed and put up all over their room. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with doing that – your bedroom should be your sacred place for just the two of you. The room and all its decorations are just for you and your significant other. What I can’t grasp is why you would want something so sacred to be strewn all over the internet for your coworkers, perhaps boss, friends, and relatives to see."
Whenever you write an opinion piece like this you are going to have some people who agree with you and others that do not. It appears that in the case of Lauren's post, the majority of readers disagreed with her. However, the most interesting part to me is to see how people respond to articles they don't agree with. Let's first look at an opinion piece that I recently wrote that the majority of people DID agree with: Why Bad Wedding Photographers Have Made The Industry Better. Aside from a few people on Facebook who claimed they would never come to Fstoppers again because I was being "mean" (I'm not sure they actually read my article), the majority of comments were very positive: "Great post, Lee. One of the better ones I've seen on this topic/issue" "Awesome post!!!", "Thank you so much for writing this Lee." "Damn, you guys have been cranking out some seriously good reads. Thanks Lee." "Can we please have more articles about photography and less op-ed pieces from the office manager?" "Sorry but this article is total crap... People have eluded to this above but, I'm just going to come out and say it. This is NOT what I visit FS for." "You are most definitely a prude. You are also being very judgemental of something that clearly doesn't affect your target market. Whatever the client wants, there will most certainly be someone willing to take pictures of it and get paid for doing so. For you to say that a bride is "vain and self-loving" for wanting steamy photos of herself and the one she loves is honestly horrible and downright nasty.As for some critique of your portfolio, I find out-of-focus, grainy, shots with crooked horizons to be more offensive since your clients probably paid you for your time."
Nobody wrote anything like "I don't come to Fstoppers for opinions, why don't you stick to news." Why? Because the majority of people agreed with me. Now let's look at the responses to Lauren's post in which more people disagreed with her. Here are a few of the comments that stood out to me:
I want to make it clear that disagreeing with a writer and making a comment about it great, we want you to do that. I LOVE respectful debates and also appreciate when someone can sway my opinion by making a great argument. I simply want to point out how quickly things can get out of hand when people disagree with something they read online. Maybe you thought that Lauren was disrespectful towards those who do enjoy this type of photography or she was unfair to the photographers who are hired to shoot these jobs, that's fine! I would probably agree with you. Writing that in the comments would make your point. Attacking Lauren personally or opinion pieces in general is not a way to argue nor behave, in my opinion.
Most people only comment if they have something negative to say
One of the most frustrating things about running Fstoppers (or anything on the internet) is that most people will not comment unless they are mad and have something negative to say. My post about bad wedding photography has been viewed 20,000 times now and has 28 comments. Lauren's post has been up for only a few hours and has been viewed 9,500 times and has 60 comments. The other unfortunate thing that you have to remember is that controversy sells. Lauren's post will probably become the most popular post of the entire week BECAUSE so many people commented negatively about it and then other people decide to comment to attack the attackers in the comments. Our most popular post of all time was The iPhone Fashion Shoot and the controversy of that post made it successful. People LOVE to tell me how terrible of a photographer I am and how I am lying to people about gear not being important and then there are others that LOVE to attack those commenters and stick up for me. The sad truth is that I bet the majority of people who read Lauren's post DID agree with her and then they moved on to the next post. In many cases it's only the people who take offense to an article that have the energy to write a comment.
All of that being said I want everyone to know that we really appreciate each of you being readers and our goal is not to offend any of you but with around 500,000 different photographers coming to our website each month, we are bound to ruffle some feathers. Please take 5 seconds and check a box in the poll below so that we can get a realistic idea of our readers opinion of Lauren's post.
Chalk one up for the Trolls. Ugh. People just like to complain and live in this idealized world where they can do no wrong and have Gandhi like morals. If the Internet of all places became a sterilized voice what would I do with myself in between edits?
It's really not worth arguing about, keep up the good work Fstoppers!
Btw it's probably worth posting this: http://xkcd.com/810/ and this http://xkcd.com/481/
Any man who relates to the world through XKCD strips is a hero in my book. Screw this debate, Tam for president!
I came here to say the same thing as Tam said. Only problem is that I was few minutes too late. His reply was better than mine, and got extra points for xkcd reference. So please listen him. :D
I remember when this site was about photographers doing what they do..and sharing how they did it. The odd gear review from "real and working" photographers combined with BTS Vids was great. Now it's a bit too much editorial OP ED nonsense. Get back to basics, KISS.
To be fair though we used to do 1 post per day. Now we do 5-15 posts every single day. We actually do more BTSV than we ever have before we have just added other content as well.
Lee you have added more, but be careful as more can ruin the whole thing.
I've recently been getting annoyed at the signal to noise ratio around here. The more noise you add the more your fans struggle to hear the signal.
I would like to add that i do miss the F-Stoppers originals. I learned a lot from them and i really wish you guys could bring them back!
They aren't gone, we promise. We will never retire FS originals!
Ya we totally agree and we need to get back to them soon. At the moment we are filming a massive project on all things wedding photography and it's taking up most of our time.
Any guestimate as to when we'll see the new iPhone 4S/5 shoot?
Quantity over quality works for some...but you guys started out very differently and now basically you are a revolving door of lesser quality posts. Understood that your working on something "big" but no regular successful business would sacrifice quality when "something" else more shiny comes up. Get rid of half of your contributors and force the remaining ones to post more quality stuff...I mean seriously, our industry isn't short of "I did this and this is how you can do it too" is it?
Agreed - quite often the same content pops up on a whole load of my feeds - Peta Pixel, PopPhoto, ISO1200 etc etc.
Fstoppers used to be largely unique with BTS only - but now it's becoming one of the crowd regurgitating similar filler articles.
Although I have sympathy with what you posted JR, I find myself coming back to the same quote more and more in my life: "The easiest thing in the world is to sit in the stalls and criticise the people on stage." I for one appreciate what these guys do, and although we've all seen a change in the ethos over the last year or so, who's to say what you or I would have done differently having to make the same decisions? The guys (and girls) ain't doing so bad, or none of us would still be here would we? Just saying...
Obviously I'm a fan if I stuck around long enough to see the gradual change to where they are at now...They had a formula that worked, and now there is a lot of noise distracting from that. Just saying...
I think the change might be that the BTS are not all of Fstoppers, and people, photographers etc, might not have the resources, business, capacity etc. to do as many BTS, refocusing on the core business. Thus, less to be shown and the guys are working hard on feeding us with something and I do believe the quest for them is getting much harder than before. what do you think ?
Perhaps, though many BTS vids are not big budget. It's a matter of an interesting subject combined with a clear how-to that makes them attractive. Quality work always requires effort, but doesn't have to be expensive to do. They did it in the beginning what's changed to make it harder?
Photographers are maybe focusing on their main work... photography, and a BTS, might be some kind of promo, but it's a big time/work/team investment.
I think the contest of FStoppers made a huge bounce on the BTS, people were doing some because there was a prize... and it's a challenge. no pain, no gain... but no gain, why bother with pain...
Even if you take a few hours to surf the net to find new BTS, it's rare, it's hard, and many are model focused and not BTS with the info and details focused. If FS would post that... the team would be taken down in fire for showing boobs or so... IMHO.
I honestly read just first half of what Lauren wrote before seeing this. I immediately got her point, I laughed, in all honesty. Then I saw the comments. I was actually thrown aback. Opinions are opinions, now I did not read every comment, I actually found it rude that some people would attack her own work in that manner.
professional or not, if you take everything too seriously (including anything internet) you shouldn't be reading half the posts on Fstoppers. I love this site, and a little humor thrown in gets me thru my day at work. I'm no professional, and I side with Lauren.
in conclusion... haters gonna hate.
Lauren, full respect for your photography and your opinion. Many of those comments were unfair, and the personal attacks were definitely unwarranted. I think FStoppers should definitely continue doing op-ed pieces for those who enjoy them (whether we agree with the opinion or not) and those who don't like them can skip over the post.
there's a lot of people on here who I class as gear-fags. all they want you to post is the latest tech news, who's bringing out a bigger camera yada yada yada... I actually really enjoy the art side, finding out about projects and learning tricks. The boudoir post wasn't my cup of tea, it's not the post just the idea of being a photographer and being asked to photograph something like that... yak!
great work Fstoppers, keep it up, post whatever you like cause it's all good.
I may agree with your point, but can we be adults and avoid homophobic epithets like "fag?" it's inappropriate and uncalled for.
I have noticed that this site seems to attract some pretty grumpy commenters.
Right?
It's because no one wants to hire them ;-)
Lauren,
Keep up the good work. The day you make everyone happy is the day you lose your soul. Then you do something crazy like go onto a successful political career ;)
I would have been a quiet reader but seeing the comments and all the fuzz.. people take stuff way to seriously these days and especially photographers with theyr high pride.
Love Fstoppers and I laughed at Laurens opinion! great post, keep it up! :D
I think you know you are doing the right thing when you cause a ruckus. People always have gotten pissed at the media, but now with the internet they have an easy, usually anonymous, and instant way to bitch.
Thanks and keep doing what you are doing, Fstoppers.
I just posted a letter of sorts to Lauren on that article. Her article didnt go too far. Give Lauren a raise. Keep doing what you're doing. I value the opinions and people brave enough to form them.
I read the entire thread of comments from the "Morning After" piece and was reminded of a simple truth. If you're by and large too stupid to attack the argument, attack the grammar. I was also reminded that getting your panties in a bunch apparently has an adverse effect on your ability to comprehend what you're reading. I have five kids and am always having to block people from their facebook pages. I don't want to see pictures of my friends and certainly not my family this way.
What's wrong with being prude anyway, the concept is passed around like its the black spot or something. The meanings and roots of the word are those of wisdom, etiquette, and looking toward the future with grace, integrity and intelligence. All traits to look for in any working or social relationship. The word was made derogatory by jackals, rapists and dumbbahsses and is usually followed by an attempt to either physically or verbally remove your pants, skirt, blouse, dress etc etc...
I don't comment on here a lot, but attacking Laurens work, and attacking her rather than the her opinion was chickenshit ignorance at its absolute finest level. I don't check out fstoppers for the opinion pieces, as it is a great place to find new technology, new techniques and occasionally my own work.
Don't let the bastards get you down
Steven Bailey
Blownapart Studios
<3
"What's wrong with being prude anyway, the concept is passed around like its the black spot or something. The meanings and roots of the word are those of wisdom, etiquette, and looking toward the future with grace, integrity and intelligence."
I so love that!!
well said.
well said ithacermike!
Of course you (FS as a collective and single entities) are entitled to your opinions, as I am with mine, etc.
But the title of that post is, well, provocative -- it was worded in such a way as to provoke a reaction (it made a statement as if it was fact, and wasn't worded as a question to open debate), and to be honest, I believe that was what was wanted.
I won't comment on the actual content as I've not had chance to read all of it yet, so will withhold any judgement there.
I don't agree with the personal attacks in the comments, though. Sadly, being miles away and "hidden" behind a computer tends to make some people a little "braver" than normal. And perhaps remove a few braincells.
if people don't like these types of articles they can always ask for their money back ;)
Gonna start advertising this new gig. Probably bring more business..
I think you should capture the IP ADDRESSES of the 12 lamers and ban them for life ;-P
Being a creator of anything is much like working for the government. The only time you get any feedback is when it is negative, just don't forget about the silent majority(we are here, as Lee pointed out we read the article and moved on). And don't blame them for being silent, it has likely been ingrained into their psyche since early childhood. Conformity, anonymity, and invisibility. The unspoken mantra of too many parents and too many school systems.
I think everyone reacted so harshly because the article itself was so harsh. It was an uncalled and overly opinionated passive aggressive "attack" on anyone who would pay for that type of shoot, actually shoot it, or even anyone who would want that type of photography taken of them. Honestly, I'm very liberal and consider myself a progressive and I think sexuality is a very healthy, normal and human thing. Those images to me are NOT DISTASTEFUL. And most photographers who shoot fashion, beauty, celebrity portraiture, and even weddings would also not see a problem with them. Who would see a problem with them? Extremely conservative people I'm guessing, which probably doesn't flow very well with the readers of this photography site. At least with me, most of the photographers I know are artists at their core. They probably wouldn't see anything wrong with any of these photos, and I doubt people from other countries besides the US or other extremely conservative places would either. Do you think a Norweign, Canadian, Japanese, or French photographer somewhere would scoff this as Lauren did and/or agree with her opinion. Doubtful.
I've been reading fstoppers for a long time, I love it and thats not going to change anytime soon.. I'll keep reading it and skip that rare "crap article" I dont like.. But that doesn't mean I didn't get a little pissed off when I read that article. Judgmental and antiquated thinking. No me gusta. Scary part is it reminded me of politics and the GOP.
I am sorry to inform you, but there are quite a few "conservative" photographers who are still artists at their core. And, yes, they think showing "morning after sex" photos is simply crap. Also, "conservatives" are not only in the US. There are also many other photogs in other countries that think this type of photography is overly self-serving to ones ego. However, no one ever called for a government ban to this. It's simply an op-ed piece.
You are entitled to your opinion, just as every one else is also entitled to their own. That's why this became such an issue. People think differently, and placing judgment upon the individual (vs idea) because "they don't think like you" is the root of the problem. You just blamed everyone in the GOP for this type of article, but what you did not realize is there are many people out there that disagree with the GOP and also may disagree with you.
"Judgmental and antiquated thinking." Isn't that what you just did by accusing an entire group of people (GOP) for the actions/thoughts of one?
Agree with amanduca.
And I understand where you're coming from Chris Hoffman - but the kind of tirade I seen in article would have been more suitable for a politics or social commentary forum, not a photography site.
I also agree with amanduca. As the polling is showing so far,
few are opposed to opinion pieces on Fstoppers. Many readers are sympathetic
with the author's position. But I am not that suprised that the tone used by
Lauren drew out the trolls.
Starting with the title "... absurd", other select
gems just within the first paragraph "needs to die" , "and to me it is narcissistic, unnecessary, and absurd."
I
suspect this was done for effect, not deliberate malice. But really, while not directed at a specific
individual by name, how is this type of attack language any different than what
folks put in the comments? If I were a provider or aficionado of this
type of photography, how do I not interpret the start of the article as a
personal attack on my beliefs?
Lee – The key question here is not ‘should we do OpEd’ – the
polling is clear, go for it. The
question to you is, “what is your OpEd standards?”. Do you want a free-for-all, use any language
you want, no-logic-required type of ‘rant’ or do you want to keep the standards
more similar to a newpaper, where the OpEd expresses an opinion, but still
maintains some standards of decorum and purpose and, dare we say, logic.
Suppose Lauren had written the article as:
Title: “Does ‘day after’ boudoir photography make
sense? For me, no.”
First paragraph:
There is a growing trend…it is this… -Think of all the
things that can go wrong here (it goes on Facebook, do we want the kids to see
it… do our customers realize that at least some folks are going to find this
offensive?)
Have we as photographers thought through all the
implications here?
-What does it mean to have this work mixed into your portfolio?
-Do we have a duty to protect our customers from themselves
or is anything goes, ring that register, the rule?
I bet you that such an article would have started a
healthier discussion. And is more
fitting with the community you have created at Fstoppers.
I think the way the two articles were written has a lot to do with it. My opinion about the two of them is not in case, but mostly catches my attention is the way it is written.
Take a look at her post and take a look at yours. Yours is a very more subtle - in the way you present the arguments and the language itself - and does not uses arguments like "they are narcissists at their finest" (which sounds a little like prejudice) or "Nowadays the only reason us of this present generation take pictures of ourselves is to hang on the mantle and most importantly, share on Facebook".
With this kind of position - language and arguments - you generate more passionate (sometimes aggressive) reactions only because it is a more passionate kind of writing. And this passionate kind of writing takes the credibility away. Also, the text only presents one side of the coin (don't know if this expression exists in english, but whatever...).
I don't know about the rest of the people, but I would guess that all of us here at fstoppers are looking for a more journalistic approach of the facts and even the opinions. That was not a journalism of opinion, that was just a person saying a bunch of things.
It's not the content or the opinion, it's the way it has been presented.
Its not that your to big, Lauren didn't do a good job of writing an opinionated article. I don't mind the authors opinion being inserted into an article, but the one Lauren wrote seemed more like a rant. It wasn't enjoyable, and it didn't make me think, it just kind of made me think Lauren was a little rude. I think Patrick does the best job of stating his opinion and the one he's arguing against. Maybe Lauren just wrote this while she was a little upset. regardless I didn't enjoy it, even though I agree with most of her statements.
If you run your business based on polls you'll run yourself out of business. Decide a direction for your site and keep to it. It's working dude. Content from photographers about photography. Lauren's recent article and the one about Craig's List both feel like rants from someone who s seeking recognition but does not yet have the talent, experience and maturity to deserve it. They simply have no credibility. Is the writer a wedding photographer or bride or a groom. What's their personal experience they bring to the discussion. Look at newspaper op-eds as a possible model going forward. Note the bios of the folks writing them...
Its okay to have an opinion, its bad to have really narrow point of view on photography and not know what you talking about. I wish some of the writers on F-stoppers, who claim that this project is about photography and media and stuff, would learn more about it, its history, read few books on photo-books or art and contemprorary photography. I have that feelings (that most of the time I try to ignore) that even though this fstoppers project (which i enjoy most of the time, btw) is still can`t jump from "wedding photographer" point of view...
i have to apologize for my english, its not my mothers tongue.
Here's a comment for ya - Keep em coming - the articles that is!
Oh please give me a break.
Lee you basically complain about "how" people responded to her article.Her article was hateful condescending and judgmental and disrespectful.
If she behaves this way you should expect the same behavior back in the feedback.
Don't complain about the negativity and hate in the comments when your writers article was exactly just that.
Saying you don't like the way certain photographs are displayed and saying that a specific photographers work sucks donkeyballs(free interpretation from my side) is not the same thing.
I work at a photomagazine and I think that it's great to have opinionated material in the magazine. It makes for a more personal feel to it. These kinds of articles are often a great read and a shitload harder to write than a simple "how-to".
I photographer I spoke to yesterday said something pretty smart: Most of the people who are complaining are the ones not being busy with work. If you're good enough at what you do, you don't have time to bitch about stuff on the internet.