Do you ever get the feeling that people who make menu settings on cameras and manual instructions to follow are having a laugh at your expense by making things so confusing? Can you explain this Canon menu riddle to me? Because it's baffling me.
Call me old fashioned or even plain and simple, but if I look at the menu settings on a camera and I see something that I can change and tinker with to suit my preferences, then I kind of expect that option to stick once I've pressed the save button. Normally, my prehistoric wishes are catered to by the good folk at Canon, but I've recently (re-)found something that has left me rather confounded and flustered. In a recent article here on Fstoppers, a reference was made to the use of Auto ISO, the advantage being that when you set up the Auto ISO feature in your menu settings, you can also set the minimum shutter speed value, among other things. Take a look at the image below for a clearer picture of what I'm referring to.
In my Canon 5D Mark IV, you go to the red menu and select the second sub-menu, called "SHOOT2." From there, you can select ISO speed settings, as seen above. Once you click that picture, you get the options seen in the image below.
From there, you select Auto, giving the camera the ability to choose what it deems the best ISO settings for you when you're out shooting so that you can get a correctly lit exposure. As the picture above suggests, you can also set the ISO range for both stills and the Auto setting. For the purposes of experimentation, I set both to 6,400 rather than the default 12,800. I don't like shots at ISO 12,800 anyway and feel that for my own needs, shots taken with such a high digital noise factor are seldom useable. But it's the bottom setting that I was most interested in: minimum shutter speed. Once you press that, you get the option of choosing the minimum shutter speed you'd like the camera to keep in certain circumstances.
As you can see, you get a lot of options to go with. I chose 1/125th of a second, because I need that speed to keep my subjects relatively sharp. The only time I'm really shooting in the dark where I need to bump up the ISO is in and around shrines and temples here in Japan, which can often be very dimly lit. Using a flash doesn't often go down too well with the locals or the monks, but I really don't like bumping the ISO as high as 12,800. The problem is that sometimes, it can get so dark that if I'm in simple aperture priority mode and my lens isn't fast enough, my camera makes the decision to either bump up the ISO to 12,800 and/or reduce the shutter speed to something so slow that it's impossible to get a crisp, sharp handheld image of my subject. So, the idea of setting a minimum shutter speed in the menu was very appealing to me, despite the obvious risks that might come with it in low-light situations.
The picture I had in my mind when I went through this menu process on my 5D Mark IV was that the camera would follow my saved settings and do me the courtesy of adhering to the wishes I'd manually entered. Oh, how stupid of me. When I took a few test shots, I was left dazed and confused. I checked my saved settings once again. ISO 6,400, check. Minimum shutter speed, 1/125th of a second, check. Aperture wide open, check. I took three shots in dark settings, and each time, I got the same result: the camera had not obeyed my wishes! See what I mean in the image below.
You can see from the red circles that the camera did indeed keep the ISO to a maximum of 6,400, but it did not keep the shutter speed to a minimum of 1/125th of a second. I deliberately chose a lens that wasn't particularly fast just to test this out. So basically, what happens is (in my nicest possible words) the camera doesn't give a toss about the settings you've manually entered and saved and does what it wants. To hell with the user, it's all about me, the camera! I looked around the web and discussed the issue with fellow Fstoppers writers, and it seems that the camera does indeed override the settings you've entered and saved. Say what?
Yes, the theory being (according to those defending this mutinous behavior by the camera) that the camera's main job is to give you an image that is exposed correctly. Therefore, if the camera deems that there is not enough light via the aperture or the parameters you've set for ISO, it will reduce the shutter speed so that you do get enough light. It was interesting to me that people seemed to be split on this. To me, I'm emphatically against a camera overriding my settings.
If the option is there for me in a menu to enter values that I want and the option is there for me to save those values, then the camera should follow the values I've entered. If I get an underexposed image that looks like it was taken deep inside someone's pocket, so be it. That's on me and my settings. But to hell with the idea that the camera can override my own choices and do what it thinks is best for me and my image. That would be like a satellite navigation system giving you five options to choose from on your route from A to B. So, you choose option two for whatever reason, then halfway through the drive, you suddenly realize that your navigation has redirected you to route four without telling you. Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course, you could say that I should enter a higher value for my maximum ISO settings or use a faster lens, but that's not the point. The point to me is that if your camera's menu gives you the option of selecting particular options and saving them, then the camera should follow those settings, regardless of whether your image comes out correctly exposed or not. What do you think? Are you happy for the camera to override your own custom settings and make choices for you? Or would you be as (faux) angry as me?
Let me know in the comments below. And also, does this happen with other makers, such as Nikon and Sony? Or is it just a Canon thing?
Makes perfect sense really, the logic is:
use the lowest iso, and lower shutter speed until you get to the minimum. If that's impossible, go for the minimum and increase iso. Since you've set an upper limit for iso your only option to get a proper exposed picture is drop the shutter speed. The alternative is underexpose the picture and it's ruined, or throw up an error saying it's impossible and you'll miss the shot. Your best bet at a salvageable image is lowering the shutter speed further (given that you've told it you don't want your iso higher up than your upper limit)
Alternatively there is something to say for give us the option of taking an underexposed image instead, but then you'd have to increase the iso in post, giving us the same result as setting a higher max iso.
Alternatively, go into manual mode, set aperture and shutter speed and activate auto iso, and see if that works (I don't have a Canon, so not sure if it'll work)
Edit:
I just checked how my A7III handles this. On aperture mode it functions the same way your camera does. On Manual it will start blinking to indicate it's at the highest allowed iso and take an underexposed picture.
Yep. You beat me to it, but I was about to say the same thing.
And yes, I use this on my Sony 7R3 and 7R4 all the time, changing those settings as appropriate for the type of photos I am taking...
Interesting regarding your last paragraph. As I said in the article, I’d prefer an underexposed image to tell me my settings were off rather than the camera override my settings. But that’s just me and why I threw the question out there. Cheers
I agree, if you don't like it, use full manual and the camera will NOT do this, you chose the Auto options and the camera is designed to capture a correct exposure. I found this problem long ago on my D4, however it would just up the ISO on me anyways, it didn't lower the shutter speed ever. I still use Auto ISO and usually Manual mode for shutter and Aperture. So at an MLB game or High school football, I set the camera to 1/1000th or 1/1250th and f/2.8 on both my 400mm and 70-200mm f2.8 lenses. The Auto ISO lets the camera choose the ISO between 100-9000 in my case. I first attempted to set the High ISO to 6,400 as well, but noticed the camera would just end up at 8,000 ISO anyways. I guess at the end of the of the day it doesn't matter if I set it or let it overide the settings, but my theory was overriding could slow down the camera. I don't want my fast camera's to have to process anything more than they already do. I'd rather get sharp photos that have a higher ISO value than I intended than underexposed images, which I'd just have to push in post anyways. I know many people say camera's are ISO invariant and I'm not sure if the D4s bodies I use are, but I certainly am one to get it right in camera and don't want to ever rely on post for exposure adjustments.
So basically what you're saying is: The camera is right to ignore your wish for slowest shutter speed and instead risk a shaky and unuseable picture. Just so the picture comes out correctly exposed. Um sorry but I respectfully disagree, this doesn't make sense.
my argument precisely. What point is a correctly exposed image if it's blurry?
It has nothing to do with the AV setting. You seem to completely ignore, that he set a minimum shutter speed and not a "preferred shutter speed".
From the info text in camera: "ISO speed is automatically shifted so that the value is not lower than the specified shutter speed."
Its basically the same like the camera would ignore the max ISO setting and just go up to 256000, cause your max ISO is just a "preferred ISO setting".
Nope sorry, its a limit you set, and the camera ignoring it is a bug and not a feature, no matter how you try to twist it.
I'm with you that any camera should always do exactly what the setting is there for and to stick to what you've set it to. But... I think you've got some things mixed up here. The setting above is there for automatic adjustment of the shutter speed relative to your iso settings. And it is staying true to those settings. In the boundaries which are set by the available light. That your cam will still alter the shutter speed is due to shooting in aperture priority. And this mode's purpose is to change shutter speed until you get a properly exposed image.
Good points. But it would be pointless in Shutter priority coz you’re setting the SS yourself anyway....
:-0). Yep. Shoot Nikon
…Or Pentax, or Sony, or Olympus.
Another article sponsored by Sony? I don't understand what you don't understand. It's obviously too dark. Set a higher max Iso and you'll see a faster shutter speed. Did we really need a whole article for this on Fstopper? Hell no.
Dude, he shoots Canon. I swear, some of you here have SDS (Sony Derangement Syndrome). Whenever the word "Sony" is in an article, even in the most minute way, you get all triggered and shit.
I don’t even know how to respond to that. Every pic in the article is from a Canon menu. Good Lord
*Clicks article*
*Hits Command+F to open up finder*
*Search: Sony*
*1 result (not even related to the article)*
"OH MY GOD FSTOPPERS ARE YOU OWNED BY SONY?!?!?"
Yep....
Haha you're funny, I'll give you this. No, I didn't even read the word Sony in the article. I just get annoyed by this site where every single article is a good excuse to bash Canon, especially on such a futile topic. The camera is doing what it's supposed to do, why on earth do we need to flood the internet with an article about this?
You need a safe space? Can you draw a picture of where the internet hurt you? Maybe try some interpretive dance ?
Nikon does the same thing. It holds base ISO while adjusting shutter speed until the min is reached. It then raises ISO until it’s max. Then it proceeds to reduce shutter speed again to maintain proper exposure. Auto exposure is priority over these subsetting. However the camera does it there will be complaints that it is not what I wanted. Doesn’t the camera know what auto exposure is? This photo is underexposed. A workaround might be to use shutter priority. The camera cannot open the lens more than it is capable of.
Seriously? Come on man. Use the Google machine. Smh
I agree with you. The camera needs to do what you told it to. It's like, "what part of minimum didn't you understand". My Sony A7RII and A7III does exactly what I tell them....as it should be. Minimum means minimum.
Haha I can’t believe people are getting mad at me for getting mad at a camera that gives me a menu option then disobeys my settings :) I always thought minimum meant minimum too, but apparently not......
Lol, I know right. I think maybe many of these folks ONLY shoot at static locations/conditions that's why can't fathom why someone would want a min ss while on ap.
"push the green button on your remote control if you want to watch sport" Push green button, American Idol appears. What the ...? Nope, that's perfectly OK it seems :)
You just don't understand the settings, and complain about them later. And no, I'm not getting mad at you. I'm just super disappointed that you're wasting bandwidth with such silly articles ;)
You’re exactly right. Hence the title of this article.
Then if this is wasting your time...why waste our time with your pointless comments?
You're actually absolutely right about wasting my time. I'm out of here haha. This website is getting more and more useless anyway.
I’m curious, are you absolutely certain that in aperture priority mode, using Auto ISO, the shutter speed on your Sonys won’t go below the minimum value you’ve set? And will give you an underexposed image or not function?
Coz I’m thinking logically here, if all these people are saying that Canon gets it right by overriding my saved settings, then that must deductively mean they think Sony gets it wrong if Sonys don’t override the saved “minimum SS settings”
Can you confirm/double check that on your Sony bodies? Cheers
Oh, man, well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. I was incorrect. I typically set mine at min ss 1/125-250 f1.8-f2.2 max iso 12800 and never goes below what I set it even in low-light rooms. I tested in a very very dim lighting, and, yeah, Sony also reduces the ss. Sorry for the misinformation.
No probs at all. It’s good to confirm that all makers do this. Thanks for testing it :)
Looking at those settings of yours it’s clear you got a fast lens and high ISO limit so there’s probably no need for the camera to go below 1/125 99% of the time. I deliberately set my ISO at 6,400 and used a slowish lens just to see what would happen. Good to know it’s not just Canon :)
This is a good explanation of how Sony’s system works.
https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1720/v1/en/contents/TP0001653146.html
My question is; What part of the word "Auto" don't you understand?
Every time you set your camera to anything "Auto" you are giving the camera a blanko to "Automatically" do, what the hell it seem necessary to do, to get a well exposed picture.
You want control? Use manual mode.
Edit:
To use your car analogy. It like driving a car with an automatic gearbox. You don't know when it is going to shift, at what speed, but it is going to shift when it is right for the gear to do so, even if its against your will.
You want control on when to shift gear, drive a car with a manual gearbox.
Er,… no. It is like an auto car with a shift stick which says, [ D 4 3 2 L ], and you put in in 3. When you start driving, it ought to shift from 1st, to 2nd, to 3rd, then red-line. It is not supposed to shift to fourth just because you are going too fast for third gear, and it is an automatic.
When it drops below his minimum, it is telling him, “you can still handhold this shot,” when that is not true. It ought to either under-expense the shot, and let him fix it in post, if he so chooses, or not take the shot at all. One can actually fix an underexposed image in post, (which is precisely what your camera is doing when you raise the exposure Index), but one cannot fix motion blur in post.
Do what you were told to do. Yes, he did set auto, but he also set maximum exposure time. If the camera feels free to alter the time value, what is to stop it from altering the EI? If the camera honours the exposure Index, ought it not honour the Tv?
If auto means, “get the image, no matter what,” then what is the point of setting the min TV?
Thank you. No need for me to add any more :)
I did not know you could get a car with an automatic gearbox that worked like that.
Maybe because its' been years since I driven one. Use manual gear myself.
You learn something new every day.
But just because I learned something new, still dosn't mean you are right ;-)
There’s nuances and interpretations in all of this and I’m gracious in taking them all. Karim’s last 2 lines above is my central argument here: why have the menu setting in the first place if the camera’s gonna choose to override it?
People in one camp say “coz the camera wants to get you a decently exposed image come hell or high water, that’s its job” Other people such as myself say “I manually entered settings on your menu, you should keep those settings come hell or high water, that’s your job”
The part where the camera follows my saved ISO settings and does not go above my set 6,400. If it’s “auto” as you say, it would go to 12,800 or above. But it obeys my input settings. So if it obeys my ISO settings (which is not auto) then why does it override the SS settings?
If I wanted the camera to choose SS settings then I would just use regular old Av with Auto ISO and factory settings. I wouldn’t bother going into the menu and altering the manufacturer’s default settings and entering my own under “minimum shutter speed”.
If I never got the menu option, I’d be perfectly ok with that and simply use Av and let the camera arbitrarily alter SS - as I have done for years and still do. The fact it’s in the menu yet doesn’t follow what it allows you to set and save in the menu is what bothers me.
That is something of a discussion you got going here. Well done to you.
Reading all the other comments, it seems like most angles, as to why this happens, has been covered in one way or another.
Makes it difficult to add something new to the subject. At least something that could change your mind, in a way to see this as normal behavior.
But that haven't stopped me from trying before, so...
When you are in the "menu setting" for Auto ISO, all the things you can change in there, relates to - and only to - the way the Auto ISO works.
You can't change settings in there for you flash, your motordrive, your white balance, your aperture and not for your shutter speed.
Only how the Auto ISO works.
On your camera, the Auto ISO works like this in Aperture Priority mode.
You set an Aperture (like 2.8), the camera find a shutter speed that will give a perfect exposure according to the ISO you have set (Most likely; ISO 100).
This is the exposure triangle we all know.
When the light start to drop, your camera will slower you shutter speed to give a correct exposure.
Note: you have sat the aperture and the ISO, so the shutter speed is the only thing, in the triangle, the camera can change.
You don't like the low shutter speeds you are getting, so you engage Auto ISO.
You set a max ISO of 800 and a minimum shutter speed of 1/125 sec.
As the light starts to get lower, the camera set a slower and slower shutter speed until it hits 1/125 sec. Then it raise the ISO.
It keep doing this all the time, until it hits 800 ISO.
At this point, we are back to where we started. You have set the aperture (2.8) and the ISO (800).
The only thing in the triangle the camera can change, is the shutter speed.
(Remember you can't change anything in the Auto ISO menu, beside the Auto ISO funktion).
On some cameras with Auto ISO, you don't even get the option to set a minimum Shutter speed.
The way they work (and this may vary from model to model), is that the camera follow the 1/FL (where FL=focal length) rule.
If you have a 60mm objective on your camera, it will begin to push the ISO, when you hit a shutter speed of 1/60 sec.
You have a 400mm obj. on your camera, the camera will start raising the ISO when you hit 1/400 sec.
But what if you have your camera mounted on a tripod?
Enter the minimum shutter speed option in the Auto ISO menu.
Now you can set a shutter speed of 1/60 sec. with you're 400mm.
So in essence, the minimum Shutter speed option is there, so YOU can override the cameras ISO setting, not the other way around.
---
Think this is just a case of getting to know your equipment and how it function, and learn to use its features and just work around the quirks you might find.
Anyway; I can't explain it better, so all I can do is wish you good shooting out there.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Just to clarify, you said “when you are in settings for Auto ISO mode, you can’t change...........shutter speed settings” That’s the issue here, you can. If you look at pic 2 and pic 3 in this article, you can see I’m in ISO speed settings in inside that specific menu is the last option “minimum shutter speed”. That’s my exact issue here - you can “manually control” SS setttings in the Auto ISO menu...... but the camera overrides those settings.....
Oh Iain Stanley
I really don't know how to help you.
Have been thinking of a 1000 way to explain this in my head, but it always come down to the same thing.
I think you are too fixated on the word "Minimum Shutter Speed", as a wording that mean that you literally can set your shutter Speed from within this menu.
Read is as a setting, you set, where the camera have to preform an action. Its like when you set the self-timer to 10sec. After 10sec a trigger is send to your camera, telling it to take a picture.
When you set you're Min. shutter speed in the Auto ISO menu, you are just sitting a trigger point, where the camera have to preform perform an action (upping the ISO).
In reality, the manufactures should just call it "shutter speed where YOU want the camera to be triggered to raise the ISO".
This just give two problems.
1. It don't tell you if its the highest point (shutter speed) or the lowest point (shutter speed) the camera is triggered by.
2. Its a damn long sentence to write in a menu.
Hans out.
«When you are in the "menu setting" for Auto ISO, all the things you can change in there, relates to - and only to - the way the Auto ISO works.»
Agreed.
«You can't change settings in there for… your shutter speed. Only how the Auto ISO works.»
I get what you are saying, but….
«On your camera, the Auto ISO works like this in Aperture Priority mode.»
I will address this in a little bit. We have to think about how Av Priority mode works.
«You set an Aperture (like 2.8), the camera find a shutter speed that will give a perfect exposure according to the ISO you have set (Most likely; ISO 100).»
Disagree to some extent. I will explain later.
«Note: you have sat [sic] the aperture and the ISO, so the shutter speed is the only thing, in the triangle, the camera can change.»
Not really, but I will get back to that.
«You don't like the low shutter speeds you are getting, so you engage Auto ISO.
You set a max ISO of 800 and a minimum shutter speed of 1/125 sec.»
So now you have given the camera two directives; ① Do not go above ISO 800, and ② do not go below ¹/125s. This is no longer Av Priority mode, this is Programmed Tv mode, where one chooses the aperture value, and the camera chooses both the exposure index, (EI), & the exposure time.
«As the light starts to get lower, the camera set a slower and slower shutter speed until it hits 1/125 sec. Then it raise the ISO.»
This is the behaviour I would expect in Av Priority mode. I set the aperture, and the camera handles the rest. This was not true for film, when the EI was fixed, but it is true for many DSLRs, and ought to be true for Canon. …but Canon is stuck in the Triassic period. I will expand on that later.
«At this point, we are back to where we started. You have set the aperture (2.8) and the ISO (800). The only thing in the triangle the camera can change, is the shutter speed.»
Disagree. It cannot change the Tv. Ok. Time for all those, “I'll get to that.”
My modern, Neozoic, DSLR has several “auto” modes; TAv (Time & Aperture) Priority, Av (Aperture-value) Priority, Tv (Time-value) Priority, Sv (Sensitivity-value) Priority, Programmed, and GREEN. (It also has three manual modes, and three user modes, but that is neither here nor there).
• In TAv Priority, one sets the Av & Tv to one's preference, and the camera chooses the EI.
• In Av Priority, one only sets the Av to one's preference. So the camera sets…. It prioritises the minimum Tv according to the focal length of the lens, and both the minimum & maximum EI according to menu preferences, or camera limits. But what if it is too dark? Then the Tv gets bigger, up to the camera limit. (NB., there is no minimum Tv setting on my camera). If it is still too dark, then the camera tells me that it is out of range, and under exposes.
• In Tv Priority, one sets the Tv to one's liking. So the camera sets…. It sets both the minimum & maximum EI according to menu preferences, and both the min & max Av according to the lens' limit. But what if it is too dark? Then the camera tells me that I am out of range, and under exposes.
• In Sv Priority, one sets the EI to one's liking. So the camera sets…. It prioritises the minimum Tv according to the focal length of the lens, and both the min & max Av according to the lens' limit. It also sets the Tv according to the camera's limit. (NB., there is no minimum Tv setting on my camera).
• In Programmed mode, one sets nothing. The camera sets everything.
• In Green mode, not only does the camera set everything, but it evaluates the scene, to figure out if it ought to prioritise DoF, motion blur, freeze action, etc.
Now note, that my camera does NOT have a min Tv setting, but it does have a Min & Max EI setting, and the camera obeys it. IF it did have a Min or Max Tv setting, or Av setting, I would also expect the camera to obey it.
My camera also has a fixed EI mode, so that the Av/Tv Priority modes will function as they did back in the Triassic period, where the EI is set at a fixed ISO value, because we used roll film. In that case…
• In Av Priority, one only sets the Av to one's preference. So the camera sets…. It sets the Tv. But what if it is too dark? Then the camera tells me that I am out of range, and under exposes.
• In Tv Priority, one sets the Tv to one's liking. So the camera sets…. It sets the Av. But what if it is too dark? Then the camera tells me that I am out of range, and under exposes.
This is the case with Canon.
Now in this Av Priority mode, Canon has attempted to enter the Neozoic, allowing one to enter an “Auto ISO” mode, and set both a maximum EI, and a minimum Tv, (one step above my Pentax, which does not allow a minimum Tv). If one does that, then the camera is expected to honour both the maximum EI & the minimum Tv, giving an underexposure if it is too dark. If it does not honour the minimum Tv, then it is just like the Pentax Programmed Av Priority mode, where there is no minimum Tv.
If the camera does not honour the Min Tv, then it is still in the Triassic.
Should have posted this on DPReview instead of making a whole article about it
THANK YOU!!! Exactly my thoughts. Besides the fact that he is wrong, this just does not deserve a whole article!
It's not a Canon thing, it's just you.
Quoting Hans: "What part of the word "Auto" don't you understand?"
Av is an auto mode where shutter speed is automated. And your screen shots clearly show that you set up ss for manual mode. Why didn't you go to "Auto" option? It's just one step above. You can't choose an exact value there, but at least you can adjust automated settings a little. After all it's just an auto.
Camera didn't override or ignore any of your settings, it did exactly what you asked for: auto ISO + auto shutter speed.
Change Av to M and camera will start to worry about your 1/125 min ss
The main rule is easy: you want total control over your camera, you go to M.
Everything else is an auto and requires you to learn about all the limitations that come with each mode. That's why M is the most straight forward setting.
M is the king/queen.
The part where “minimum shutter speed” is in the same menu category. Auto ISO is not actually Auto ISO - it’s Auto ISO until it reaches my setting threshold - in this case 6400. Then it stops - it obeys my saved settings. So why doesn’t it do the same for my saved “minimum shutter speed” settings? They’re my settings - if the exposure comes out black so be it....
Hi Iain.
I'm quite new to my 5dIV, but the way I see it is that you can use auto ISO across all the shooting modes, but Auto ISO + min shutter speed works only in modes where you set your ss manually (e.g. M and Tv). For auto ss modes you can use auto ISO + compensation. I know it doesn't seem very helpful, but imagine using 200mm to shoot street parade that goes from shaded areas to sunny ones using M or Tv. Once you are occupied with action in front of you it would be very easy not to notice that you went down to speeds way to slow for your glass. With this option you don't have to worry about it.
Cheers
Edit: Ok, it bugged me, so I checked manual and have to admit it was designed just as you described, so it should work on Av. But, they also clearly stipulated that your settings will be overwritten to get correct exposition. Not a surprise, since it's still auto and auto is all about correct exposure. It takes us back to my first reply, you want total control over your camera go to M.