Do you ever get the feeling that people who make menu settings on cameras and manual instructions to follow are having a laugh at your expense by making things so confusing? Can you explain this Canon menu riddle to me? Because it's baffling me.
Call me old fashioned or even plain and simple, but if I look at the menu settings on a camera and I see something that I can change and tinker with to suit my preferences, then I kind of expect that option to stick once I've pressed the save button. Normally, my prehistoric wishes are catered to by the good folk at Canon, but I've recently (re-)found something that has left me rather confounded and flustered. In a recent article here on Fstoppers, a reference was made to the use of Auto ISO, the advantage being that when you set up the Auto ISO feature in your menu settings, you can also set the minimum shutter speed value, among other things. Take a look at the image below for a clearer picture of what I'm referring to.
In my Canon 5D Mark IV, you go to the red menu and select the second sub-menu, called "SHOOT2." From there, you can select ISO speed settings, as seen above. Once you click that picture, you get the options seen in the image below.
From there, you select Auto, giving the camera the ability to choose what it deems the best ISO settings for you when you're out shooting so that you can get a correctly lit exposure. As the picture above suggests, you can also set the ISO range for both stills and the Auto setting. For the purposes of experimentation, I set both to 6,400 rather than the default 12,800. I don't like shots at ISO 12,800 anyway and feel that for my own needs, shots taken with such a high digital noise factor are seldom useable. But it's the bottom setting that I was most interested in: minimum shutter speed. Once you press that, you get the option of choosing the minimum shutter speed you'd like the camera to keep in certain circumstances.
As you can see, you get a lot of options to go with. I chose 1/125th of a second, because I need that speed to keep my subjects relatively sharp. The only time I'm really shooting in the dark where I need to bump up the ISO is in and around shrines and temples here in Japan, which can often be very dimly lit. Using a flash doesn't often go down too well with the locals or the monks, but I really don't like bumping the ISO as high as 12,800. The problem is that sometimes, it can get so dark that if I'm in simple aperture priority mode and my lens isn't fast enough, my camera makes the decision to either bump up the ISO to 12,800 and/or reduce the shutter speed to something so slow that it's impossible to get a crisp, sharp handheld image of my subject. So, the idea of setting a minimum shutter speed in the menu was very appealing to me, despite the obvious risks that might come with it in low-light situations.
The picture I had in my mind when I went through this menu process on my 5D Mark IV was that the camera would follow my saved settings and do me the courtesy of adhering to the wishes I'd manually entered. Oh, how stupid of me. When I took a few test shots, I was left dazed and confused. I checked my saved settings once again. ISO 6,400, check. Minimum shutter speed, 1/125th of a second, check. Aperture wide open, check. I took three shots in dark settings, and each time, I got the same result: the camera had not obeyed my wishes! See what I mean in the image below.
You can see from the red circles that the camera did indeed keep the ISO to a maximum of 6,400, but it did not keep the shutter speed to a minimum of 1/125th of a second. I deliberately chose a lens that wasn't particularly fast just to test this out. So basically, what happens is (in my nicest possible words) the camera doesn't give a toss about the settings you've manually entered and saved and does what it wants. To hell with the user, it's all about me, the camera! I looked around the web and discussed the issue with fellow Fstoppers writers, and it seems that the camera does indeed override the settings you've entered and saved. Say what?
Yes, the theory being (according to those defending this mutinous behavior by the camera) that the camera's main job is to give you an image that is exposed correctly. Therefore, if the camera deems that there is not enough light via the aperture or the parameters you've set for ISO, it will reduce the shutter speed so that you do get enough light. It was interesting to me that people seemed to be split on this. To me, I'm emphatically against a camera overriding my settings.
If the option is there for me in a menu to enter values that I want and the option is there for me to save those values, then the camera should follow the values I've entered. If I get an underexposed image that looks like it was taken deep inside someone's pocket, so be it. That's on me and my settings. But to hell with the idea that the camera can override my own choices and do what it thinks is best for me and my image. That would be like a satellite navigation system giving you five options to choose from on your route from A to B. So, you choose option two for whatever reason, then halfway through the drive, you suddenly realize that your navigation has redirected you to route four without telling you. Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course, you could say that I should enter a higher value for my maximum ISO settings or use a faster lens, but that's not the point. The point to me is that if your camera's menu gives you the option of selecting particular options and saving them, then the camera should follow those settings, regardless of whether your image comes out correctly exposed or not. What do you think? Are you happy for the camera to override your own custom settings and make choices for you? Or would you be as (faux) angry as me?
Let me know in the comments below. And also, does this happen with other makers, such as Nikon and Sony? Or is it just a Canon thing?
Yes, this would be true if I knew where the manual was. In the time since I bought the camera I’ve moved house twice and had 2 young daughters. Lord knows where that little thing is! Interestingly, there is no such thing written in the Info/Help menu in camera, which is all I consulted in my test
Makes no sense at all. The only reason I'd set a minimum shutter speed (or shutter priority even) would be because I'd know the lens I'm using would be useless at a lower speed handheld. I'd likely be able to compensate in post for a shot that was two stops underexposed, but if I was shooting at a focal length of 200mm and set a minimum shutter of 1/200 and ended up with 1/50 there's no way that image would be usable. I could live with it if it were bumping up the ISO, personally I'd prefer that to having to fix the exposure in post. But a slow shutter speed is significantly more destructive in my opinion.
In older film cameras we'd need to test all the shutter speeds for accuracy, and work around imperfections we find. With digital not much has changed, we still need to figure out the quirks of the camera that could ruin a photo. As long as the result can be repeated, the photographer can work around it and trust the camera to always behave in the same way. To that end, thanks for this article, for making this camera just a little more predictable for the rest of us.
My thoughts exactly re. your first paragraph. Blurry image no matter how well exposed is useless
May be this page from the user manual is appropriate for your case. Please read your manual before you start complaining. Even my old EOS 20d has a similar setting. Likely the "OFF" position would give you the desired behavior. Take a look at the setting and I am almost certain it is on a "safer" setting.
This is the correct answer.
Not the issue. The issue is not that the camera is doing what it is programmed to do. The issue is the statement in the first paragraph of page 182 of the manual. The setting is to PREVENT BLUR caused by either moving subject, or camera shake.
The issue is that the setting is NOT programmed to carry out its stated purpose. The problem is that the camera is programmed to give a “proper exposure” regardless of a setting designed to prevent subject blur.
YES, the camera did what it was programmed to do. The camera is NOT programmed to do what the setting was designed to do. (Same manual, nothing new). One thousand people telling him that the camera is doing what it was programmed to do IS NOT germane to the issue. It is still not fulfilling the purpose for which it CLAIMS the setting is there.
So you're using a (semi-) automatic mode and complaining that the camera gave you a proper exposure?
No. he is claiming he is using a semi-automatic mode which did not fulfil the purpose stated in the manual, (and a previous FStoppers article).
why do you get it? Do I speak a language no-one else can understand? haha I am Australian so maybe it's the nasal twang....
The feature that baffles me the most on Canon Dslrs is the print button. I can see very few people printing straight out of camera...
Off topic, but did you ever try this feature? I did once and the results were superb. Who knew?
Given that all the cameras mentioned do the same thing there is evidently a consensus among camera brands that this is the right way to go - not sure I agree though but at least it's consistent.
The simple fix is not to set a max auto ISO. If you'd prefer an underexposed image, at your chosen min SS, then you'd have to correct it anyway in post by adding exposure - but at least you'd have a sharp image. Why not set the maximum auto ISO to the cameras max in the first case? - same same.
Sharp or noisy, I know which I prefer!
yes I agree with all your points. And in real world terms you probably wouldn't limit your ISO to 6,400. I just find it curious that they allow you to set and save minimum/maximum parameters in the menu then go ahead and override them anyway....
As someones else said, it's auto exposure and the camera always aims for a 18% grey averaged result. Otherwise it will never know when you want underexposures or correct exposure therefore auto = 'correct' exposure in ALL cases. It seems clear to me but it is a bit of a gotcha for sure.
Maybe we'd prefer it to override the ISO instead of the SS.
Yes, I think you’re spot on. It’s certainly not as black and white as many people are suggesting
To satisfy my curiosity I just tried something on my Leica SL2, which incidentally does the same thing you describe when in Aperture Priory.
In Shutter Priority, the camera behaves exactly as you would prefer. Set a SS and that's it. You will get an underexposed image if the max ISO, max f-stop and chosen shutter speed are 'wrong' for the amount of light. Try the Canon, if you have not already.
Can you choose to set the f/stop parameters though? Otherwise that would just be manual, right?
Once the ISO comes down to base, the f stop changes. So maybe Manual is best! YMMV!
Precisely! When the set limits are reached, then under-exposure is expected! Therefore, honour the set limits.
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This is the Safety Shift feature doing its job. It can be turned off. Or it can be set to modify ISO only. On your camera, it is set to modify shutter speed / aperture. It has been on Canon EOS cameras for many years. It sounds like you are not familiar with this feature. It sounds like many commenters here are not familiar with this feature. It is on the C.Fn1:Exposure menu. [This reply is to the author of the article. Not sure why it is being placed as a reply to a comment.]
No, unfortunately I lost the manual years back (though I can download one of course). Do you mean the “custom settings” in the menu? And when you say “it can be turned off” do you mean that the camera will then stop overriding my settings and just give me an underexposed image at 1/125 (if the lighting is not good)? Thanks for your insights
My apologies, I got it wrong. Apparently Safety Shift can be turned off for Tv mode, but not for Av mode. If you turn off Safety Shift and shoot at 1/125th in Tv mode, then it will never give you a shutter speed under 1/125th. Instead it will just underexpose if there's not enough light. But in Av mode, it seems that the Safety Shift is always on, regardless of its setting (to my surprise!). So to be sure of a minimum shutter speed, turn Safety Shift off, and shoot in Tv mode, or in Manual mode. Download the manual and look up Safety Shift, page 485.
Thanks for taking the time to look it up. Guess I’ll just stick to shooting M :)
MANUAL
<<<<>>>>
Tv/Av: Shutter speed/Aperture
Takes effect in the <s> shutter-priority AE and <f> aperture-
priority AE modes. If the subject brightness changes and the
standard exposure cannot be obtained within the autoexposure
range, the camera will automatically change the manually-selected
setting to obtain the standard exposure.
>>>><<<<
This means that the manually set value, (in this case, aperture) will be overridden. This suggests that other limits will be honoured. But we may not want the aperture value to be changed. We may want the expected behaviour of, “I cannot reach a proper exposure. This is the best I can do.” The point of Av Priority is to be in control of the DoF. we do not want to lose that.
That is what happens in all other situations. The camera tries its best within the limits of the controls.
P.s., excess noise is an overrated issue. It has always existed, and is a product of too little light, and not an ISO or “fixing in post” issue. Whenever Lv in the box is low, there is noise, whether we see it or not.
Really? It's not difficult. It's a setting to assist action shooting when shooting in Aperture Priority. I use it all the time albeit on a Nikon and have done for many many years. If I'm photographing moving animals in the early morning, I want an AutoISO shot combined with a minimum shutter speed but I really want to control DoF so shoot in Aperture priority. This minimum shutter speed is a "I'll do my best for you" option. If it can't expose then it can't expose. It also goes beyond this, it also uses an algorithm to decide the ISO and Shutter Speed and this algorithm changes on the ISO you a have dialled in too. The cameras job is to get a shot and it breaks the rules you've given it to ensure you get the shot. If you don't like this setting turn it off or shoot manual or in shutter priority. If its baffling, then time to read the manual or go down to a less advanced camera, this really isn't difficult to understand.
Thanks. A number of readers above have said the relevant **subnotes in the user manual show the camera will override the minimum shutter setting you enter, though this info isn’t published in the relevant in-camera help notes.
Ultimately, it comes down to whether you think the camera should override you to get a correct exposure, or not override you and give you an underexposed image. I’m in the latter camp if I’ve specifically entered the settings myself and changed the factory defaults.
No big deal. Manual is what I usually shoot in but just thought this might be a nice option in certain situtions
«This minimum shutter speed is a "I'll do my best for you" option. If it can't expose then it can't expose.»
BINGO!
That is my expected behaviour. If it cannot expose, it cannot expose. Give me my under-exposed image. I had set the limits. Honour my choices.
Seems like the camera has to choose between disobeying your wishes for minimum shutter speed, or delivering an underexposed image. It appears to be choosing the first.
I'm with you that I'd argue it SHOULD be choosing to give you an underexposed image rather than going below your minimum shutter speed.
But I guess that's what TV mode is for.
And frankly, I just shoot manual like 99.9% of the time, so it's a nonissue for me anyway.
Yep 100%. Comes down to your point of view in what the camera should do with YOUR settings. No great thing to lose sleep over but it does baffle me that you’d have an option that the camera then ignores. Meh, it’s made for a good debate haha
"To me, I'm emphatically against a camera overriding my settings."
THEN WHY ARE YOU IN A PRIORITY MODE
Priority mode IS a setting! So is max ISO, and Min SS. Using Av Priority + Auto ISO where the camera chooses Tv & Sv within SET limits, is not the same as having the camera override one's settings. When te camera decides that the Tv limit is merely a suggestion, (or, overrides the set Av), then it is overriding the limits that were set by the user.
When I use Auto ISO on my Nikon D810, I also have to set a minimum shutter speed (in my case, I have it set to 1/100 sec). But I also have to set a *maximum* ISO. Mine is set to ISO 4000. So the camera will automatically set the ISO within those parameters. This means that in Aperture Priority, at any given aperture, the shutter speed and ISO are set to give a proper exposure at that aperture.
However, should the light levels drop to a point where a proper exposure cannot be obtained at or below the maximum ISO, the camera will override the minimum shutter speed, and allow shutter speeds well under 1/100 sec.
You might check to see if you need to raise the maximum ISO setting.
Let me see if I can make this clear.
In Av mode, the camera will adjust the Tv for a perfect exposure. That is expected.
In Av mode with “Auto ISO” on, (and no max Tv set), the camera will adjust Tv for best exposure until Optimal Tv is achieved, then raise the EI until Max ISO is achieved, then continue to increase Tv. That is expected.
What does the Canon manual say next? Here is what it says…
>>>><<<<
You can set the minimum shutter speed so that the shutter speed set
automatically will not be too slow when ISO Auto is set.
This is effective in the <d> and <f> modes when you use a wide-
angle lens to shoot a moving subject or when you use a telephoto lens.
It helps to reduce camera shake and blurred subjects.
<<<<>>>>
Two things to note. The purpose for the setting is stated as, ① «…that the shutter speed set
automatically will not be too slow when ISO Auto is set,» and, ② «It helps to reduce camera shake and blurred subjects.»
So if this is the purpose, then this ought to be the priority. It is not. The manual goes on to say,…
>>>><<<<
If a correct exposure cannot be obtained with the maximum ISO speed
limit set with [Auto range], a shutter speed slower than the [Min. shutter
spd.] will be set to obtain the standard exposure.
<<<<>>>>
This is in complete opposition to the stated purpose.
So the issue is not that the camera is doing what the manual says it should be doing, but that the camera is designed to violate the purpose for the setting. It does NOT prevent blur caused by subject motion or camera shake.
If the manual had stated that the purpose of the setting is solely to limit noise from too high an EI setting, then that would be a different matter. It is, indeed, a two pronged problem, with a two pronged approach, requiring a two pronged limit, but only one of those limits are being honoured.
This is how it was designed. I would suggest raising the Max ISO to 12800 and using a wider aperture. The camera prioritizes maintaining your max iso over your lower shutter speed and will never go past your max iso in auto iso mode.
I think you are overthinking it and expecting the camera to behave differently than it was programmed to do. Quite simply, canon designed the minimum shutter speed setting to prioritize maintaining your auto iso within limits and to forego SS settings you get adequate exposure. They did this to allow you to still take the photo and not be under exposed.
The other option would be for the camera to either take an underexposed photo or not take the shot at all. The camera is doing exactly as it was programmed to do. If you do not like the way the settings work I would suggest not using them and instead shooting manual... faulting the camera for your incompetence of each mode is not the correct mindset.
thanks. Yes, I could raise my ISO to 12,800, and I could use a wider aperture (on a different lens). But they would also be MY settings. So the camera would then also be following MY settings. So when I originally set the ISO to 6,400 and my aperture to f/4, why didn't the camera follow MY settings regarding minimum shutter speed? This is the conundrum. I COULD get around it any number of ways, but the question is why is the camera not behaving as I've asked it to? And it's allowed me to do in the menu...,..
You still don't understand after ALL the people who explained to you since you posted your non-sense article? Wow...
I happen to be a programmer, and as sometimes happens with programmers, I think the Canon programmers accidentally designed this in a way that is confusing to other people.
It seems to me that the "minimum shutter speed" is misleading, and in fact doesn't have anything to do with setting/limiting the shutter speed at all (at least not directly). If you notice, all of these settings are in a menu specifically related to controlling the ISO, not for managing exposure as a whole. As such, this menu only sets limits on the ISO and how it reacts, not on the shutter speed.
Here is how these settings interact with the exposure calculations:
When the camera decides what exposure to use it calculates the ISO first. The shutter speed is a whole separate step after the ISO has already been decided on. To calculate the ISO, it first starts with the lowest ISO it can. It then checks what the corresponding shutter speed would need to be to have the image properly exposed. If the corresponding shutter speed is above the "minimum shutter speed", then the ISO is correct and the camera can continue on to calculating the shutter speed. If however it is not, and the corresponding shutter speed to properly expose the image would be below the "minimum shutter speed", then the ISO is increased to the next level and the camera tests the exposure again. This process repeats until either the ISO is set to the maximum level allowed in the ISO range settings, or until it finds an ISO that would properly expose the image with a shutter speed that is above the "minimum shutter speed". At this point the ISO is finalized and the camera can move on to the next step. If you notice, during this step it never sets the shutter speed, it just checks for proper exposure and what the corresponding shutter speed might eventually need to be for proper exposure.
Now that the ISO is set, the camera can continue on to actually setting the shutter speed. This process is quite simple. It just sets the shutter speed to whatever speed will give a correct exposure. If the ISO calculation procedure from the first step successfully found an ISO at or below the ISO limit that corresponded to a shutter speed above the "minimum shutter speed", then the actual shutter speed calculated now will be above that limit as well. If the first step was unable to find an ISO that was within the valid range while keeping the shutter speed above the "minimum shutter speed", then the ISO from step one is set to the highest value it can without going outside the range. This means that the actual shutter speed calculated now will be below the "minimum shutter speed".
This setting should really have been named "Increase ISO when shutter speed goes below: " or something else to that effect.
Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Yes, when I see "minimum shutter speed" I take it literally. As in "ok, the camera menu says minimum shutter speed can be set, so I'm gonna set minimum shutter speed". But as you've rightly pointed out, it is in the ISO settings so ISO takes priority and the camera goes into programmed override mode. As you said, if it was called something other than "minimum shutter speed" then I wouldn't give two hoots and I'd deal with it accordingly. But as it is called "minimum shutter speed" then I take issue with those damn programmers and their menu labels haha :)
If you want to do what you’re suggesting, follow these directions:
Turn the camera to Manual, then go to the custom function menu and choose your custom aperture and shutter speed range (you can find this in the second tab of the Custom Function tab).
Once you've set those ranges, set your ISO range the same way you’ve been doing. Now the camera will adjust those settings manually, without adhering a preselected exposure level, meaning your settings are locked in, not your exposure level.
This is how to do what you're trying to do, but I must add that the camera is operating correctly in the instance you described above. In any AUTO mode (Av, Tv, Auto, etc.) the exposure level you tell you camera (via exposure compensation) is KING. Those modes exist so you nail exposure in every shot. So when you're adjusting "minimum shutter speed" range in ISO Settings, you are simply telling the camera to crank the ISO to the highest range BEFORE deviating from the MSS that you set. But at the end of the day, in Av mode, the camera is going to give you your chosen exposure, even if it means sacrificing that MSS that set. MSS is really just an ISO Speed setting, meant to prioritize shutter speed over ISO.
Most photogs (when shooting in an auto mode) prefer accuracy in their preselected exposure over a harsh adherence to the camera settings. There are exceptions to this rule in some cases, but that's why these cameras come with manual modes.
These directions apply to a Canon 5d Mk IV by the way.
Thanks Trey. Unfortunately my C1 and C2 settings are already spoken for haha. I was just putting the camera through some tests based on the menu options and another article (linked in my article) here on Fstoppers. What’s good to know is that you can always find workarounds, as you’ve perfectly shown here. Cheers
What you are describing is the Pentax TAv Priority mode. It is NOT a manual mode at all. In Manual mode, there is NO effort at all by the camera to attempt to make a proper exposure. In TAv Priority, and in what you have described, The camera makes an attempt to give proper exposure within the limits set by the photographer. If the limit is exceeded, one gets an under-exposed image.
The problem is that the previous FStoppers article, and the Canon manual, —until the caveat— both describe something which the author is trying to accomplish; “allow me to adjust my aperture as I like, and you adjusts both my Tv and EI, within the limit I set.”
Your solution, although an elegant way to mimic the Pentax TAv Priority mode on Canon, is not the same as what the manual describes.
<<<<>>>>
You can set the minimum shutter speed so that the shutter speed set
automatically will not be too slow when ISO Auto is set.
This is effective in the <d> and <f> modes when you use a wide-
angle lens to shoot a moving subject or when you use a telephoto lens.
It helps to reduce camera shake and blurred subjects.
>>>><<<<
The Sony manual has similar wording, with precisely the same result; max exposure time is not honoured.
The idea is an automatic mode which prevents blur, within limits. If the limit is exceeded, then the camera ought to do what your solution and the Pentax TAv Priority mode does; produce an under-exposed image. The difference is that, what is described, is Av Priority, with Auto EI/Tv, within limits, but while the limits of the EI is honoured, the limits of the Tv is not.
Now the Pentax Programmed Av Priority mode has a similar setting. One can limit the EI, just like on Canon/Sony. One can shift the programme to allow a longer or shorter exposure times —focal length dependent,— just like on Canon/Sony. But what one cannot do, is set a maximum exposure time as one can with Canon/Sony.
It would seem that such a limit on when the “Auto ISO” kicks in is both illogical, (unless one is NOT altering one's focal length), and meaningless, (since it can be programmed shifted, anyway), and at worse, as one programmer pointed out, is totally mislabelled, both in its description, (as it is not a limit, but a threshold value), and in its stated purpose, (as it does not prevent blur).
What you described is a much better approach, but is NOT the same thing, as the photographer still has to set the Tv manually, instead of the camera taking control (within limits, as the previous article, and manual, described).
A better way to put it is, “let me know when blur due to camera shake is likely, (which Pentax cameras can do), and also when the subject is moving too fast, (which no camera does).” That is the point of quite the useful, but so far, un-implemented, maximum exposure time setting.
It is certainly an useful idea for all the DSC manufacturers to implement in their next firmware update, or their next camera.
Can any Nikon/Olympus user comment on if and how Nikon/Olympus does automated Tv/Sv mode? (Not TAv Priority, but Av priority with both Tv and Sv set by camera, within limits, if possible). Would love to hear.
Would love to hear too :)
Com on! You applying Minimum Shutter Speed Setting and wondering why camera shot with higher value than expected minimum? I think 1/5 > 1/152. But there in no Max. Shutter Speed setting in this camera=)
Canon, like many photographers, use the term, “shutter speed” to refer to the denominator of the fractional exposure time. Therefore, a reference to a higher/faster “shutter speed” means a quicker/lower exposure time.
Every camera has a maximum “shutter speed” or a minimum exposure time. On modern cameras, with a mechanical shutter, that is usually around ¹/8000th of a second.
The setting on the camera for a minimum “shutter speed” is setting a maximum exposure time limit. If set to ¹/180 seconds, it ought not give an exposure time longer than ¹/180 seconds.
That being said, most modern cameras also have a maximum, manually settable, exposure time, typically 30 seconds. Longer exposure times are usually only possible in automatic mode, or bulb mode.
That also being said, all modern cameras have only one mechanical shutter speed, and it is designated by the flash sync exposure time (for focal plane shutters, and the minimum mechanical shutter exposure time for leaf shutters).