Do you ever get the feeling that people who make menu settings on cameras and manual instructions to follow are having a laugh at your expense by making things so confusing? Can you explain this Canon menu riddle to me? Because it's baffling me.
Call me old fashioned or even plain and simple, but if I look at the menu settings on a camera and I see something that I can change and tinker with to suit my preferences, then I kind of expect that option to stick once I've pressed the save button. Normally, my prehistoric wishes are catered to by the good folk at Canon, but I've recently (re-)found something that has left me rather confounded and flustered. In a recent article here on Fstoppers, a reference was made to the use of Auto ISO, the advantage being that when you set up the Auto ISO feature in your menu settings, you can also set the minimum shutter speed value, among other things. Take a look at the image below for a clearer picture of what I'm referring to.
In my Canon 5D Mark IV, you go to the red menu and select the second sub-menu, called "SHOOT2." From there, you can select ISO speed settings, as seen above. Once you click that picture, you get the options seen in the image below.
From there, you select Auto, giving the camera the ability to choose what it deems the best ISO settings for you when you're out shooting so that you can get a correctly lit exposure. As the picture above suggests, you can also set the ISO range for both stills and the Auto setting. For the purposes of experimentation, I set both to 6,400 rather than the default 12,800. I don't like shots at ISO 12,800 anyway and feel that for my own needs, shots taken with such a high digital noise factor are seldom useable. But it's the bottom setting that I was most interested in: minimum shutter speed. Once you press that, you get the option of choosing the minimum shutter speed you'd like the camera to keep in certain circumstances.
As you can see, you get a lot of options to go with. I chose 1/125th of a second, because I need that speed to keep my subjects relatively sharp. The only time I'm really shooting in the dark where I need to bump up the ISO is in and around shrines and temples here in Japan, which can often be very dimly lit. Using a flash doesn't often go down too well with the locals or the monks, but I really don't like bumping the ISO as high as 12,800. The problem is that sometimes, it can get so dark that if I'm in simple aperture priority mode and my lens isn't fast enough, my camera makes the decision to either bump up the ISO to 12,800 and/or reduce the shutter speed to something so slow that it's impossible to get a crisp, sharp handheld image of my subject. So, the idea of setting a minimum shutter speed in the menu was very appealing to me, despite the obvious risks that might come with it in low-light situations.
The picture I had in my mind when I went through this menu process on my 5D Mark IV was that the camera would follow my saved settings and do me the courtesy of adhering to the wishes I'd manually entered. Oh, how stupid of me. When I took a few test shots, I was left dazed and confused. I checked my saved settings once again. ISO 6,400, check. Minimum shutter speed, 1/125th of a second, check. Aperture wide open, check. I took three shots in dark settings, and each time, I got the same result: the camera had not obeyed my wishes! See what I mean in the image below.
You can see from the red circles that the camera did indeed keep the ISO to a maximum of 6,400, but it did not keep the shutter speed to a minimum of 1/125th of a second. I deliberately chose a lens that wasn't particularly fast just to test this out. So basically, what happens is (in my nicest possible words) the camera doesn't give a toss about the settings you've manually entered and saved and does what it wants. To hell with the user, it's all about me, the camera! I looked around the web and discussed the issue with fellow Fstoppers writers, and it seems that the camera does indeed override the settings you've entered and saved. Say what?
Yes, the theory being (according to those defending this mutinous behavior by the camera) that the camera's main job is to give you an image that is exposed correctly. Therefore, if the camera deems that there is not enough light via the aperture or the parameters you've set for ISO, it will reduce the shutter speed so that you do get enough light. It was interesting to me that people seemed to be split on this. To me, I'm emphatically against a camera overriding my settings.
If the option is there for me in a menu to enter values that I want and the option is there for me to save those values, then the camera should follow the values I've entered. If I get an underexposed image that looks like it was taken deep inside someone's pocket, so be it. That's on me and my settings. But to hell with the idea that the camera can override my own choices and do what it thinks is best for me and my image. That would be like a satellite navigation system giving you five options to choose from on your route from A to B. So, you choose option two for whatever reason, then halfway through the drive, you suddenly realize that your navigation has redirected you to route four without telling you. Thanks, but no thanks.
Of course, you could say that I should enter a higher value for my maximum ISO settings or use a faster lens, but that's not the point. The point to me is that if your camera's menu gives you the option of selecting particular options and saving them, then the camera should follow those settings, regardless of whether your image comes out correctly exposed or not. What do you think? Are you happy for the camera to override your own custom settings and make choices for you? Or would you be as (faux) angry as me?
Let me know in the comments below. And also, does this happen with other makers, such as Nikon and Sony? Or is it just a Canon thing?
Good find! Thanks. Still don’t agree though haha
I really understand where you come from, but I also understand manufacturer who assumes when you set all three (ISO, ss, ap.) values up manually while still sticking with auto mode that you need some help from them. Clearly in this case auto is more important for you - that's how it looks for manufacturer.
Aha the all too easily forgotten user manual. Just read your manuals people! And if you don't agree, then just use M or another camera haha :-)
My question then is, “Why is there a minimum Tv?” It is behaving precisely like a modern Programmed Av Priority mode, except, instead of having the camera choose the Optimal Min Tv, (based on focal length, and IS setting), the user chooses the Optimal Min Tv.
In other words, it is pointless.
I think I've used "pointless" more times than I care to guess in these discussions. Alas, we seem to be in the minority haha!
So, it's working exactly the way it's designed to, and exactly the way it should. What was the point of this article, exactly?
No, it’s not. The menu gives you the option to save minimum SS. Then it doesn’t follow that setting. So it’s not working as the menu was designed. And why does the menu give you “minimum shutter speed” setting option to save? And why doesn’t the camera override the maximum ISO I’ve set? It stops at ISO 6,400.....
None whatsoever. Just waste our time and waste bandwidth.
The problem is NOT that the camera does what the instructions says it is designed to do. The problem is that the design sucks. It is useless. It behaves precisely the way my Pentax behaves when I choose Programmed Av Priority, (versus traditional Av Priority). It increases the Tv to a Optimal point, then increases the EI to a maximum, then continues to increase the Tv. (The Pentax does NOT have a Max Tv setting).
The Canon menu already has an option for that; Av mode with “Auto ISO” and no maximum Tv set. The problem is that the menu offers one to set a maximum Tv, but does not honour it.
That is, “Min SS” is NOT the maximum exposure time, but the Tv threshold.
[EDIT]
According to the Sony manual,…
{…you can set the shutter speed at which the ISO sensitivity starts changing.
This function is effective for shooting moving subjects. You can minimize subject blurring while also preventing camera shake.}
This is the expected behaviour, for the stated reason; to minimise blur due to camera shake (or subject motion). Therefore, it is reasonable for the setting to be honoured.
The Sony manual continues,…
{If the exposure is insufficient even when the ISO sensitivity is set to [ISO AUTO Maximum] in [ISO AUTO], in order to shoot with an appropriate exposure, the shutter speed will be slower than the speed set in [ISO AUTO Min. SS].}
This behaviour is asinine. It ought to give an indication of an out of range setting, and under-expose, because the purpose of the setting is now invalidated.
“Auto,” ought not mean, “I will do what I think,” but rather, “I will do what I think, within the set boundaries/limits.”
[/EDIT]
you've got an iso you want to shoot at – and just that iso. you've got a shutterspeed you don't want to move below. you're shooting wide open. so, you know exactly each of those settings you want – why aren't you shooting manually?
Good point. I don’t actually shoot this way but looked at another article here that was discussing this and I’m very interested in camera settings and override. And why I asked about different brands. I’m very strong in my belief that a camera/form of technology should do as it’s set, not override the user. Others seemingly disagree but that’s fine. Good to discuss
the camera did as it was set. in an automatic exposure mode, it attempts a good exposure; the constraint it was given was a range of a single iso setting, with a sub-setting (interpret this as secondary) for a certain minimum shutterspeed. in order to hold to the primary settings (aperture having first priority and secondly respecting the iso range), in order to make a good exposure, it dropped the shutterspeed – the lowest priority setting – to do what the user demands by setting an automatic mode, which is to take a good exposure. every time a user sets an automatic exposure mode, the camera's entire mission is to take a good exposure. that (and the entire metering readout) can be adjusted through exposure compensation. the camera isn't overriding you, it's doing exactly as asked – achieving good exposure – by changing the one constraint that was set as secondary to another one – that shutterspeed setting was a menu item within the iso range setting. there would be more to worry about if a camera set to automatic happily took an image more than five stops underexposed.
Because light keeps changing. (I thought that was obvious).
…Also, he does NOT have an EI he wants; he has an EI range which is acceptable. Also, he is not necessarily shooting wide open. He is controlling his DoF. Av Priority DOES NOT mean, “shoot wide open.” That can mean many things, including f/16 or f/22.
So, no, he does not know “exactly” the settings he wants. He knows the range of settings which are acceptable, and longer exposure time than t seconds is NOT acceptable.
This is like a forum question someone realized they could get us all to click on. lol
Fstoppers Standard Operating Procedure.
You're mad at the camera for overriding something you wanted (minimum shutter speed) because you'd rather it override something you wanted (your exposure compensation value). You're almost five stops off here, it's gotta pick one.
I’m mad at the camera for not following my settings. I set maximum ISO 6,400. It stopped at 6,400. I set maximum aperture. It kept maximum aperture. I set minimum shutter speed to 1/125. The camera decided to override that. My question is: if it’s in the menu to set a minimum SS value, why does the camera override it? It doesn’t override my maximum ISO limit and go to 12800, so why does it override my minimum SS value? Just give me an underexposed image.....
Why it chooses SS vs ISO I don't know. Maybe because manufacturers figure photographers would rather chance a little blur than have disgusting noise.
But the camera IS following your settings - your exposure mode, which takes priority over some little submode. You go to aperture priority because you say, "I want an image at THIS aperture and THIS exposure compensation value. Camera, do everything you can to give me a proper exposure at f/4." That's priority number one. AUTO ISO is an added tool to get to that point and is priority number two.
It's not going to tell you that your settings are off by underexposing, because exposure is the priority.
It's telling you your settings are off by going below your min SS, because AUTO ISO is NOT a priority.
They are all good points but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree, which is perfectly fine. I accept that exposure is the priority but if it’s a setting in the menu and I specifically change it from its factory default value, then I think it should keep my setting, regardless of the end result. After all, the camera has no problem giving me a completely white, blown out image if I deliberately set the SS to 10 seconds in the middle of the day. That’s user error. We learn by making mistakes, so (to me) the camera/makers should not try to override whatever I might be doing wrong. If I wanted that I’d just use Auto modes on a cheap point and shoot
With all due respect, I don't think this is an "agree to disagree" topic. Basic exposure modes (Av, Tv, P, M) are such a fundamental piece of photography. They've been around decades longer than AUTO ISO has and we shouldn't expect that they function completely differently, favoring AUTO ISO settings over basic exposure, because Fstoppers loves sensationalism. You teach photography, you should understand the fundamentals of these modes, what they do, why we have them, and what's important. AUTO ISO is an extra feature (one that I regularly use when appropriate), not a new exposure mode.
The "agree to disagree" part is regarding camera/technology powers. I don't think any form of technology should override settings it has explicitly allowed me to change. In this case we're talking about Auto ISO/SS, but my point would still be the same if we were talking about sleep mode on a computer. If the camera (or any form of technology) lets me set something, then (to me) it should keep that setting. If it doesn't want to do that or is programmed to do differently, then the option shouldn't be there in the menu in the first place.
If there was no option to set "minimum shutter speed" I wouldn't care in the slightest. I'd shrug my shoulders and move on. But if it's there, then it should keep what I set. To me that's fundamental in programming....
You teach photography?
Yes, not computer programming
If the light levels fall below all your thresholds something has to be scarified (which makes perfect sense in a temple and shrine, I would think...).
The logic is to increase ISO up to limit and treat this as hard stop at all times whereas the shutter speed is considered less critical and therefore can be lowered further. The background logic seems to be: Slow shutter speeds can be countered by tripods, Image Stabilizer and other measures, high ISO noise has no cure.
I wish Canon would not sell this as premium feature in their single digit camera bodies.
The logic is perfectly understandable and perhaps commendable if it was purely "auto mode". But considering it's a menu option to change it manually (literally, the word "manual" is used as you can see in the cover photo) then I'm kind of critical. There are 3 end possibilities really:
1. They keep my settings and I get an underexposed image (my fault)
2. They override my settings and slow the SS down and I get a blurry image
3. They override the ISO settings and I get a noisy image
Personally, I'd prefer number 1 coz then I've got no excuses - it's my error and the problem is on me
#1 or #2, both is acceptable to me. I think the key is that you missed the small footnote in the manual :)
Guilty of that 100%. I’ve had the Mk4 for years and moved house twice and had 2 daughters in that time. God knows where the paper manual is haha!!
I think all the cameras do this. They stop at the ISO max but they will still bring down the shutter if it's too dark. Super annoying I know. But my Nikon and my Fujifilm do this I'm pretty sure. I even think my Sony does this, it's something I'm always dealing with and like you, I wish the camera would just obey even if it means underexposing. So in dark environments, I usually switch to manual and leave the ISO on auto.
I can't comment with certainty but Black Z Eddie above said his Sony A7RII and A7III stops at the minimum shutter speed and doesn't go below....
It would have been easier if you would have written at the end of your article "No matter what argument you will bring, I will always answer, "Why does it override the shutter speed I have set?"
Nobody will be able to answer you this question in a way you can accept it.
Thanks for the article Iain. Your experience & reaction has been the same as mine. The result is that I never use Auto ISO.
It seems we’re in the minority in feeling this way haha :)
If you use automated modes, you are doing so to get a correctly exposed image with minimal effort. So, given it can't meet all your automated settings to get that exposed image, I don't think it unreasonable that the camera overrides a setting to get a correctly exposed image.
Far more people will complain that their automated mode didn't expose correctly than will complain that it overrode settings, as these comments attest. And ultimately, in that environment, it had to do one or the other.
Given that, your camera settings have a priority order implied and I believe your camera followed that priority order correctly:
1. Aperture is fixed and can't be changed as you have programmed the camera to be in aperture priority mode.
2. You have selected auto ISO mode, so it should sit within the ISO limits that you have set.
3. You have told your camera to consider a minimum shutter speed when selecting an ISO setting.
Given that priority order, overriding the shutter speed is exactly the compromise that I would expect it to make.
It's doing exactly what I would expect. You set a max ISO and yes, a min shutter speed, but with your aperture and max ISO what they are, it could not be exposed that way. Either the shutter speed has to give or the ISO; you can't have both - and this is the Auto-ISO setting, after all. Use custom functions for different scenes/light levels. One is for freezing motion first (1/125, higher ISO), another is reducing ISO (1/focal length, high ISO) and the last a "get the shot at all costs" mode with (any, highest ISO).
Read your owners manual.
*If a correct exposure cannot be obtained with the maximum ISO speed limit set in [Auto ISO range], a shutter speed slower than the [shutter spd.] will be set to obtain a standard exposure.
I'm a bit confused... You set the minimum shutter speed under the "Manual" setting, but you were shooting in Aperture Priority, right? Does Canon perhaps consider that to be an automatic mode? So do you just need to set the minimum SS under the "Automatic" option? Also, I'm not sure what good having such tight restrictions on your ISO and SS are, especially if you're going to put 2 out of 3 exposure settings on auto. If the camera had listened to you, it looks like your shot would have been 4-5 stops underexposed, so, almost pitch black... If you want that much control over your SS, just shoot in manual - auto ISO makes that option a lot easier.
To be perfectly honest it was just for experimentation purposes. I just wanted to see what would happen if I deliberately chose 6,400 ISO, used a slowish lens, opted for 1/125, then shot in a dimly lit environment. To me, it would have been great if the camera did indeed keep my settings and gave me an underexposed image. It didn’t. It compensated by slowing SS. Hence my thought “hmmm, that was a pointless menu option”
I’m not out taking photos and getting horrible shots coz if this :)
I would be willing to defend this behavior in a prosumer or lower category on the same grounds others have stated here. But on a full-frame camera intended for professionals? No way.
"It's not a flaw, it's a feature." - Microsoft
I guess Canon could provide additional settings for what happens when it can't expose to the light meter within your boundaries should it: override your min shutter speed, max ISO, follow some kind of program that creeps up on both or lastly allow over/under exposure?
I think your mutinous camera is working just fine. Afterall, you're in aperture priority I think most users would expect a correct exposure above all else.
Loads of comments here and a mix of reactions.
When you use an ‘auto’ mode, in this case Auto ISO, you are asking the camera to attempt to properly expose the image. The camera has done exactly what it is supposed to do and exactly what you asked it to do. You asked it to properly expose the image using the f/stop you selected within the parameter of an ISO as low as possible and a shutter speed not slower than 1/125th. As the available light decreased and the shutter speed dropped to 1/125th sec, the ISO bumped up till it reached the maximum you asked for. The light decreases more and so the triangle needs to balance again and the only variable left to change is shutter speed, so the shutter speed decreases - hence the result you got.
If you don’t like the results and you’d rather a severely underexposed image, then take it off Auto ISO and set the shutter speed where you want it. Personally, rather an image that is somewhat usable than a black one I can’t see. If you cant hear and feel the difference between 1/5th sec and 1/125th sec, then go sit in a quiet place and try it out for a while just so you can sense the difference as it happens.
Personally, I use Auto ISO a fair amount of the time, except when I’m shooting in a situation that I know is going to push the limits of the settings I’ve chosen and then I switch it to manual and ask the camera to do what I ask regardless of the exposure the meter reads. In the dark when its trying to reach 18% grey, often you can save a picture by ‘going manual’.
One question: Is it possible the setting is just mis-named?
In other words... Have you tried getting the camera to take pictures with a shutter speed faster than 1/125th of a second?
I'm not saying it's correct behavior, though, just saying that the setting may do something other than what it says.
Well, what we have learned here:
- Iain's camera is working properly
- Iain thinks it's broken because he didn't read the freaking manual nor remembered engineering rule number one: when everything else fails read the freaking manual
- the canon engineers, when confronted by an impossible scenario, decided to overrule his SS seting instead of forcing the user to overrule the iso setting in post.
- I'm an engineer and my mother used to talk to me in portuguese so my english skills are poor.
And last but not least:
- We are all glad its just a clickbait article from fstoppers and not a plane with mister "i don't read the manual/ this thing must obey the ME" as our pilot.
Cheers!
It does that when you hit the top ISO setting allowable. Something has to give. It's not going to change the aperture value, so either it'll drop the shutter speed or pick a higher than allowable ISO, OR it'll freeze up and not take the shot. Canon decided the least worst option was shutter speed.
By the way, the EOS R does this too.
Nothing has to give! What happens, when you reach EI = ISO Max, and Tv = 30s (or whatever Tv Max is)? Does the camera keep on adjusting? NO! It says that the exposure is out of range, and gives you a dark image. NOTHING HAS TO GIVE!
If I tell the camera that I it cannot go longer than ¹/125 seconds, then it ought to say, “Okay, but this is what you are going to get!”
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what "minimum" means. In your top picture where you selected the "minimum shutter speed", you'll notice that the values to the left and higher up are what the camera considers "smaller" or more "minimum". Maybe you think those values are bigger, that's fine, but that's not what the camera thinks. So in this example here, the camera is not shooting any faster than 1/250 seconds, because you've set that as the "minimum", it'll only shoot LONGER time frame.
If that's confusing, it's just lost in translation I guess.
Just doing my bit for education :)
This is not the only instance of this Canon-knows-better mentality. Would you ever imagine that tilting your flash upwards would affect the camera's shutter speed?!?
i shoot full manual with my nikon and never had it change settings on its own; heck all i shoot is manual; just did a photo shoot yesterday in manual all day and change settings on my own as the sun went down and never any problems
I pretty much shoot exclusively manual too. This was simply an exercise in testing the camera out. It didn’t do what I thought it would do and what I thought the settings implied it would do. Hence it left me baffled and I wrote this article :)
I know that no-one thinks it is necessary to read the manual these days, but I would have thought that when you are trying to problem solve an issue that would have been the first port of call. p182 of the Canon 5DMkIV manual and I quote:
"If a correct exposure cannot be obtained with the maximum ISO speed limit set with Auto range, a shutter speed slower than the Min. shutter spd will be set to obtain the standard exposure."
The camera is therefore performing exactly to spec.
A half press of the shutter will show the shutter speed in the viewfinder. If you want the camera to underexpose, then use exposure compensation or full manual.