It's an unavoidable topic in American conversations. In the photography world, it seems to pop up on the forums and Facebook groups often enough to warrant further consideration: guns. Not necessarily in the heated, political debate sense, but to ask this question: In a world where carrying a concealed weapon has become more normalized and photographers spend more time in remote and urban locations, do firearms have a place in your business?
Kellie Saunders, a wedding photographer in Birmingham, Michigan, knows a thing or two about gun safety and operating on the streets. Before becoming a full-time photographer, Saunders spent six years as a police officer in Detroit.
“Originally, I studied journalism and worked with commercial photographers and publishers prior to becoming a Detroit police officer," Saunders said. “When I decided to get married and start a family, I wanted a job that was flexible and offered stable hours. I couldn't find that in the private sector, so starting a business with my camera was a natural and easy transition.”
Saunders still does most of her work in Detroit as a photographer. But unlike her time spent in a squad car, she mostly leaves the gun at home these days.
“I am a firearms lover. Let's get that out of the way right now," she said. "I am all for private citizens having the right to carry firearms if they so desire. With that said, with a firearm comes great responsibility."
So, carrying a gun while she's out making portraits isn't in her plans.
“How can I photograph clients and be in a creative headspace while at the same time be legitimately prepared for a battle with a criminal?" Saunders asked. "If someone were to jump out of the bushes, let's say, their weapon is already out and ready. Time is of the essence, so think about it. By the time I can put my camera down and draw my weapon, either I or my clients could be hurt or killed.”
Saunders said that most Concealed Pistol License holders aren’t tactically trained, so drawing a weapon when out on an engagement session or other job might do more harm than good.
“Not everyone understands how a real life firefight could go down. I do, and that's why I choose to keep my weapon at home when I'm with clients," she said.
On the opposite side of the spectrum is a 12-year licensed concealed pistol carrier and active auxiliary police officer who is also an established wedding and event photographer in a major metropolitan area. He was granted anonymity for the sake of his business, as it might be affected by this article.
“There are lunatics everywhere. Who says giving up your stuff will protect you? That may work sometimes but not always. Sometimes, lunatics are into random violence, not just robbery,” said the photographer, who disclosed that carrying is a personal choice for him and that he doesn’t disclose it to clients.
“Responsible gun owners don't tell people they are carrying. One, many people aren't comfortable with it, so there's no point. Two, it isn't something to brag about. It is for protection against bad people,” he added.
The photographer said he began carrying on the job out of general concern for his safety while hauling gear around jobs in the city.
“I think I've been carrying around 10-12 years, not sure precisely," he said. "I was worried about crime and thought it was a good idea."
When asked for comment, National Rifle Association Spokesperson Lars Dalseide said: “Whether at home, on the job, or in the field, the NRA supports every law-abiding gun owner’s choice to safely and responsibly exercise their Second Amendment rights." He elaborated: "The right to carry was only available in a handful of states in 1991 while violent crime was at an all-time high. By 2015, more than 40 states had adopted right-to-carry laws, and the violent crime rate had dropped 51 percent. Should all the credit go to the new right-to-carry laws? No, not all. But criminals are less likely to attack targets who might be armed."
New stories of photographers being robbed or mugged aren’t unheard of, so it's no surprise that many people consider a concealed weapon as a precaution. On the other hand, statistics tend to find that guns are used far more often for killing than self-defense. But if guns aren't for you - for whatever reason - Saunders says vigilance and some streets smarts are most likely enough to keep you safe.
“I photograph in Detroit almost every week, and I love my city. I've never had a problem,” she said. “My advice is to always be aware of your surroundings. Know the areas you are working in. Don't trespass. Don't take your clients to abandoned buildings. Work in well-lit, well-traveled areas. If you see someone down the street approaching you on an 85-degree day with his hands in his pockets, wearing a thick jacket, and looking around, get in your car and leave.”
It should be noted that in many states, concealed weapons are not permitted inside of churches or synagogues, nor are they allowed in places of gathering that exceed set capacities. If you're a wedding or lifestyle photographer who carries or is considering carrying a gun, make sure to check the regulations of the state you work in first.
Where do you stand? Is having a concealed weapon with you on a shoot something you’d consider? Do you already carry? Should your clients know about it? Let us know in the comments.
Statistics indicate you're safer without one.
Statistics would indicate you're safer without a car, or walking on the sidewalk, or flying in a plane. Do you let statistics run your life? If you're going to side with statistics, then you ought to just stay in your house forever.
There are so many things that are statistically dangerous, but for some reason everyone targets guns; so far the common denominator with those folks is they do not carry a firearm. They are chiming in on what they are ignorant of.
You don't choose to drive a car or fly on a plane or walk outdoors for the purpose of being safer. You choose these for the purpose of getting somewhere. A gun doesn't get you somewhere or accomplish any other purpose unless you're hunting. If the purpose of having a gun is to make you safer, and on average a gun doesn't make you safer, the rationale for having it is faulty, or at the very least the choice is unrealistically optimistic. Obviously, when you're discussing averages, some people will still benefit, while others will suffer the unfortunate alternative outcomes, such as shooting the wrong person, being shot by their toddler, having their gun stolen and used to shoot someone else, etc. I weigh the very low odds of being injured by an armed attacker and the low probability that I'd be able to deploy a gun effectively against one who surprises me against the frighteningly high odds of these other possible outcomes and decide to rely on my street smarts and unarmed combat skills instead.
Notice that nowhere have I prescribed what choice anyone else must make.
I am guilty of assuming you would [prescribe choice]. Conversely, all the alternative outcomes you mentioned can happen with a car, and are preventable with either (gun or car). There is truth to the unrealistic optimism also for the statistically low chance that I'll ever need one in my lifetime. I agree with you and the officer that street smarts are 99% effective. I just like having the choice to act or not, but I'd likely flee. I think it's the sensation of vigilance that I admittedly enjoy.
I believe the more likely scenario I am preparing for is finding myself in a terrorist situation; a position like in Paris where people had no chance whatsoever, I am frightened more by the idea of having nothing when I cannot flee.
Lastly there is a purely constitutional motivation underlying all of it for me. I believe tyranny is a forever threat; we've only been around for 3 lifetimes, so I choose not to rule out a possibility simply because I've never witnessed it. I feel if we outlaw guns from the streets there will be less participants, the spirit will eventually be forgotten and firearms eventually removed. I love my country, but fear my government.
As I say this, I've enforced your point that this is the wrong forum for discussion. Not one word about photography in anything I just said. Sorry, but I can't help not to defend what I believe, the slag fest is what lured me.
Stay safe in NYC brother.
Is that a trick question? You're not obligated to draw your weapon, you can leave it hidden, you can run away, you can offer up your gear, you can punch with your firsts. To believe one is safer with LESS options is lunacy. Would you drive a car that only makes left turns? Of course not.
Carry and decide at that moment whether to use it or not; every situation is different.
There's this incredible thing when people pull a gun without shooting anyone. Happens very often.
I carry my P938 daily, but especially if I'm going to be walking around with thousands of dollars of gear, or out in the middle of nowhere.
Lee, with another unrealistic scenario to compliment your weak man's argument. If the person is willing to stick around AFTER you are pointing a gun at them, then do you honestly believe they would have walked away by giving them stuff?
You're so focused on the "cost of a life" when it's totally irrelevant. Asking dumb questions to satisfy your delusion. Are you trying to prove a point or just intrigued and motivated to join the club of gun owners? I see your questions and your profile image and it's depressing. I feel bad for you in a sad and lame sense.
It's about defending a life whether there is camera gear present or not. You want to place a price tag on a life so anxiously like a child that's about to piss himself. You are obsessed with a monetary value. Here's a value question for you. Thief approaching Katherine with unknown intentions; which is more valuable: the thief's life, or Katherine's?
You have this deranged idea of entitlement of human rights for people encroaching upon someone else's. What is the threshold for Katherine to find out whether or not the thief just wants her stuff? Before, after, or during the rape?
You're so focused on the "cost of a life" when it's totally irrelevant...
dear lord Jordan, how can you even think this ?! The cost of a life is the most relevant part of all this discussion we are all having! I couldn't care less if the entire world would carry guns as long as there was a garantee no one needed to use them. the thing is, if you have one it's because you've thought about the idea of needing it, which means one day you might "need" to use it.
Given a scenario where you'd have to use it and i'd have to flee cause i don't have one and don't want it, i now quote Lee and his first question again : "Given the choice to hand over your gear and claim insurance, OR keep your gear by shooting someone (dead if needed), which would you choose?"
I was responding to Lee's obsession of badgering everyone here with the identical question; demanding a dollar value of a life.
It's loaded question that's, as you said, completely irrelevant. He's cornering her with a fabricated and ridiculous scenario, trying to prove his fantasized reality. Perhaps in his liberal fantasy land there are scenarios with two choices. YOU said yourself how deadly it is to predict a criminal's actions; giving up gear does not guarantee your safety.
So official answer is neither. No one has to die. ---His scenario is so unrealistic he's obviously never carried a gun in his life. If someone is willing to attack you AFTER you have a gun pointed at them, that person is after more than camera gear.--- I pull my gun, crook takes a hint, I keep my gear, both parties walk away.
Why submit to criminals? Why enable them? If I'm down on my luck I'll go to a shelter and beg for food; not go steal a camera with a weapon! They're no different from me, I have no pity for them. Stealing is OK if you're in need? We're not talking about bread, we're talking about ARMED ROBBERY. So much sympathy for scum.
Are you a thief yourself? Is this why you're so defensive? Why don't you volunteer to bring prisoners out of jail and into your home? I can guess why you won't. I don't know about you, but of the few things in the world that truly anger me, being accused of lying or stealing tops the list. It's the lowest of lows.
It's truly a simple solution for the thief. Don't steal from people, they might shoot you. What's the problem?
is this really the kind of thing you need to be posting on here? this really has nothing to do with photography. this site has really really gone downhill.
I'll never understand the madness of your fucking country. Shame on you
Hard to when you're from generations of serfdom; you've been conditioned, and the idea of relying on yourself for protection is out of this world.
Are tasers legal in the US? I know I would personally rather a non lethal approach like that.
Also guns that only shoot beanbag rounds should be available to the public, with proper ammo only being available to law enforcement. If your intent is only to protect yourself and stop the attacker, a taser/beanbag rounds are more than efficient.
Bean-bag rounds and rubber ball rounds are available; however they are referred to as less-than-lethal. Traditional bullets have the advantage of sending the crook to the hospital after he flees. Tasers will allow him to continue preying on victims.
Less than lethal should be preferred if you want to protect yourself and not simply cause harm to others.
I say it, because, when approached for advice to peoples' first gun, I'm consistently asked: "Aren't there rubber bullets? I don't actually want to, you know, 'KILL' anyone."
My response is also consistent; "If you aren't prepared to take a life, then don't buy a gun. Rubber bullets can kill, and aiming for the leg is poor tactics."
I am loosely considering a taser, but they are appropriate for neither multiple assailants, nor armed assailant(s), nor distances out of reach of the taser as well as your comfort level. #4 in the article below involved a woman encountering a man with a grenade of all things! I also read of a man, armed with only a pistol, who stopped an attack from ≈50 meters away; I believe; I'll continue tracking the article, but it was an impressive range that required him to take a knee in order to make his shot.
Notice police carry both options; taser being secondary; either both, or only a gun; for the sake of wearing a full on duty belt, it's just not a realistic option for civilians. Additionally, the altercations cops frequently encounter in their roll of actively apprehending people causes a great demand; my roll is opposite.
Like I've said in this thread, and as reinforced by the stories linked below, brandishing a weapon is highly effective. I have control of that trigger, and the criminal is the catalyst; he has a vote.
I suppose it's a pioneer's attitude as American culture has origins; out with no one to count on, yet with a family counting on him, someone showing ill intent cannot be afforded hesitation.
http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass...
Adam, great topic (and article). I hope Lee and Patrick give you a raise because the amount of exposure this article is getting spells ka-ching in the bank from all the ad impressions.
You won't have much luck getting a CC permit in cities like NYC. The only people around here that walk around locked and loaded are the cops, and the thugs looking to rob you :-/
If you live in Southern Africa definitely! Make sure you know how to use it and be prepared to use it.
Moved comment -posted in wrong place
Hahahahahahahahaha Hahahahahahahahahahaha Hahahahahahahaha You gotta carry a gun cause everyone else has guns. But guns are not the problem.
They have guns, knives, stones, fists with intent to bludgeon, and penis' with intent to rape....all kinds of fun stuff waiting for you.
Are we going to get follow-up articles on whether photographers should carry tazers, pepper spray, or pitchforks, or take martial arts or boxing lessons, or learn how to shout "Help! Police!" in 38 different languages? Sorry, but this is a really bad topic choice for a photography site. Guaranteed to drop the discussion level straight into the gutter.
Jacques, did you have a traumatic life event to make you so aggressively negative towards this subject. It's such a bad topic, but you made it a point to comment. You're not even giving it a chance. Conservatives are always bashed for being intolerant, bigoted, hateful, and angry; yet you display such similar attributes on this. There must be some reason. A lost family member?
It's such a controversial topic, with entrenched opinions on both sides, that it's almost guaranteed to devolve into a slag fest, and I don't think it's relevant to the topic of the site any more than any of the other possible topics I listed above. An article more broadly focused on the dangers that photographers face and how to stay safe would be more useful.
I see your point, and agree it quickly can turn to a 'slag fest'. I wish it weren't that way; both sides are guilty of turning ugly, but conversation is a good thing overall. If it were an article as you described and the author casually mentioned that some photographers carry a firearm, then it probably would not have gotten so much attention.
My personal opinion is that Jacques is a more intelligent person than you seem to be, this given your direct verbally aggressive reaction to his post. On a quite normal reaction on a photography site, you believe he has had a traumatic life event, he is aggressively negative, he lost a family member and as a conservative you feel always bashed for being intolerant, bigoted, hateful and angry, all things which are true and are reflected in your reaction.
Mario, much like you inadvertantly supported me the last time you opened your mouth, there's confusion in writing. 'Tone' is exceedingly difficult to convey without drawn out descriptive sentences you would find in a novel. We're already writing lengthy responses on a drawn out discussion; (*edit- let's not make it lengthier; however you are complaining about inquiries, not insults; a bit aggressive prodding perhaps, but harmless inquires no less). Sometimes adults make mistakes; something I'm increasingly convinced you are not.
This is another "nanny nanny boo boo, I got you!" from your play corner, as you pick apart my words with a microscope; something liberals resort to after running out of talking points; attack character, because your only prayer is removing credibility from my testimony to make yours appear better.
Jacques is a level headed individual, and despite my incorrect assumption, he impressively maintained restraint with a firm, consistent, and respectful response. He has gained much respect from me as well as help me learn from his actions; all from the way he conducts himself.
I imagine he sounds like Liam Neeson, and has a particular set of skills.
Yikes, so much for not becoming political
In my country, probably more than 95% of the population never handled a gun. so for my context, this post is helpless. I live in a very quiet reality compared to some other countries... I might feel unsafe and there are obviously robberies, but i never even considered that as an option. i wouldn't know what to do with and would probably feel nervous carrying it. Thank you for being a peaceful country dear Portugal !
Are robberies peaceful?
My wife, she is from a country without guns; except for criminals and cops. Your story reminds me of her's. She has lived for a majority of her life without the option, so, even when she faced a threatening situation, the idea of what-if I had a gun never crossed her mind. She thought falsely, just like many others false impression of the states, that everyone here shoots eachother; it's a gunfight to the bus stop every morning; you cut me in line, I'm going to shoot you. She learned quickly how far from the truth that is. Now given the chance to carry one for herself, her opinion has changed completely; she loves to shoot and supports civilian ownership, but she is not comfortable carrying on the street. She is quite capable of safe handling, but there is a huge responsibility that she's not ready for yet.
Many altercations are ended by simply brandishing a gun, and no shots are fired.
I was robbed twice as a kid. I still don't consider a gun. once with a knife and the second time with a needle that the guy said was infected. Was it? i sure as hell don't even want to know. I was jumped both times and held with both weapons close to my skin. Would it be wise to draw a weapon then? no, i honestly don't think so. The wise option in life is to not resist and give your watch, phone or whatever you have. is it even worth it risking your life and fighting back, even if you have one million cash in your pocket ?! I think that is the question you should ask yourself before buying or using a gun. I know my answer.
It's totally dependent on the situation. If they have the jump on you, then of course; pony up your watch, phone, or whatever; I'm not sure it's the wise option as it is the only option when you have no weapon. Different situations will lend different opportunities. I think that's insane you've been robbed that many times in your life, and here people are exclaiming how dangerous America is with guns; in 30 years I've never been robbed. The question is will they take your watch and go, or do worse things before leaving? That is often the case here, and with a weapon you are not obligated to find out; there's options. I believe there is some stark differences culturally; a thief in your country can count on the propensity of you being armed being incredibly low.
As far as the criminal element, I don't like the idea of letting them get away with things as people say "if they need it more than me", as if they deserve it. If I have an opportunity to draw, then I will; I'll keep my life and the belongings are just a formality. I am curious of your two situations how they played out; they came up on you with complete surprise? For me there are steps of escalation. I'm aware of people around, and as my comfort level drops I begin removing steps between me and my weapon. I may pull up my shirt and rest my palm on the handle, remove the safety, or grasp the weapon all together; at no time have I needed to unholster. There is also an element of showing your fangs, sometimes I carry openly on my hip. A criminal does not want a fight as much as you do, and even if he has a gun as well, he will likely move on to a softer target. There's also a way you carry yourself; people will avoid you. Perhaps robbery is super-common in Portugal. I'm beginning to feel safer here.
i agree with a few things you said, disagree with others. i'm 33, was robbed at 8 with the knife (yeah back then kids used to play in the streets, there where no ipads thank god!) and at 14 waiting for the bus to go to school with the needle. pretty scary for a young kid.
i'm not here to make any foolish comparisons on which country is safer. This is not a "my penis is bigger than yours" topic for obvious cultural and logic reasons. All i'm saying is, that even with the 2 dodgy situations when i was young, i still don't consider carrying a gun in any situation, nor does the majority of the population in my country. Once again, cultural reasons.
obviously after some age, experience a beard and height on my shoulders, i've not been in any more robbery situations, but one day, who knows... shit happens to all of us.
the last crime statistics i found about Portugal report to 2012.
In 2012, Portugal had a murder rate of 1.2 per 100,000 population.
In the same year of 2012, the US had a murder rate of 2859 per 100,000 population.
i could not find robbery statistics but this one scared me quite a lot. Again, there is no history of guns in Portugal so don't even compare these statistics, i posted them out of curiosity. Makes no sense at all to compare these numbers.
cheers, stay safe and shoot with your camera !
your opinion was wise until this moment : "I'm aware of people around, and as my comfort level drops I begin removing steps between me and my weapon. I may pull up my shirt and rest my palm on the handle, remove the safety, or grasp the weapon all together; at no time have I needed to unholster. There is also an element of showing your fangs, sometimes I carry openly on my hip. A criminal does not want a fight as much as you do, and even if he has a gun as well, he will likely move on to a softer target. There's also a way you carry yourself; people will avoid you. Perhaps robbery is super-common in Portugal. I'm beginning to feel safer here.".
This was when i lost hope of a rational conversation... the day you think you know what a criminal might be thinking you are one step closer to your death. be very cautious because it doesn't matter "the way you carry yourself". Someday, people might NOT want to avoid you and that could be it.
Cultural reasons indeed; "people might NOT want to avoid you" sways me one way, and you another. I'm not conveying that I can read a criminal's mind, but just staying that much higher on my toes; admittedly very often, which can easily seam stressful and worrisome to many, but there is an air of vigilance about it that I enjoy.
I found it a pretty rational discussion; you identify differences without insulting America, few on this forum can do that.
The video does prove a point, but I guess I will always opt to choose the slim chance, over submitting; stubborn to some, American to others. I just read horror stories in the news; some I wouldn't survive, some I may; like the Ohio machete-man randomly attacking a pizzeria; frightening to imagine, but it's something I won't ever have to imagine.
Yes, it's the beard Pedro, definitely the beard. Much of my power is derived from my beard. Cheers.
the beard comment - winner!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/b8xtNvfX73k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
https://youtu.be/b8xtNvfX73k
this guy was able to counter ANOTHER gun along with extra thugs, who immediately flee as the cowards they are. acted like he was reaching for his wallet, so even when you don't have the first move there is still an opportunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi7_uiAUEa4
these guys almost didn't survive... internet videos, not the best way to prove a point. there are always 2 sides to a story.
i didn't try anything other than expressing my opinion, just as you did yourself right now. And please, again, shoot with your camera, not your weapon.
Okay, so I have tried to read through most of the comments and of course there are some very strong views and thoughts on this topic. Fair enough, each to their own I suppose.
However, I can not for the life of me fathom or imagine a scenario where I would be packing my camera bag and double checking that the batteries for my flash are charged and the clip for my handgun is loaded.
Seriously. Can not. Imagine it.
Maybe I am living a bit of a naive existence here in Australia? Maybe the feeling of safety I have while out and about in my community, or travelling throughout my country has been a lie fed to us all by a very clever government (all though I doubt that's the case) but I just can't imagine living any other way.
I know about firearms. I have done 20+ years service so yeah... I know.
Still, I can't help feel frightened for those of you living in places where the 'right' to bear arms is given precedence over common sense. More to the point, I feel sad that you can't walk the streets without the need to carry your guns to feel safe.
I just can't imagine how that would feel.
It feels great. I can't imagine what it's like to condescend on another culture's ideals. Well I do, I feel pity, but have never sought out forums to preemptively deliver that message; it's always situations like this where we're all doing fine, and then an article like this emerges along with the entire European union badgering us about how wrong, barbaric, and idiotic we are.
Do you have neighborhoods you avoid, because you don't feel safe there? Or a few streets that you detour from during particular times of the evening? I'm sure you do just as everyone does. However crime is not restricted to one side of the tracks, and can strike randomly. It's for that one in a million chance...that's all. Is it sad that if that number comes up in my life, that I have a better chance at coming home to my family? They wouldn't find that very sad.
Do you know what's scary, eating pizza with your family out on the town, when a man bursts in the door with a machete and begins hacking everyone in sight....that's not the scary part. The scary part is the idea of sitting there waiting to be chopped with no weapon. I'll never experience that fear, because I always have a gun. So you ask how that feels; it feels great.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/02/16/random-act...
Yes, of course there are parts of town I would avoid, because that's the advise we get from the officials and I choose to listen to that advise for my personal safety and that of those around me.
What I don't do is say "F**k It", strap on a firearm and stroll into those areas anyway just because I feel entitled to do so.
You seem to have been one of the most vocal advocates in this discussion for the need to carry your firearm and if that's what makes you feel safe and secure, so be it. I'm not going to rain on your parade at all. More power to you and I'm glad that you're able to have your pizza and eat it as well.
Personally (notice I said personally?) it sounds to me that you are living your life in fear of the 'what if' and I don't think that is healthy or productive.
Of course, you're entitled to do whatever it takes for you to feel safe within the purview of the laws of your land.
I'm just happy not living a life ruled by a boogieman that may or may not exisit but I do respect you choice to enterain him.
I can't take you seriously when you throw in the boogieman comment; it's an undertone that I get from all Aussies, so I guess its a timing of humor that doesn't jive here; anyway.
I believe there is a lot of misconception and false assumptions. Why would anyone walk into a seedy part of town just because they have a gun? Only an idiot vigilante would do something so foolish, and they'd find themselves in jail if something came of it; there's self defense and there's provocation. You won't fool a judge unless your grandma lives in da' hood.
There's also this obsession with FEAR and NEED TO FEEL SAFE, is it broadcasted on your radio repeatedly? You're not the first to throw that card out there, as if it was part of the transcript of public announcements prior to the gun buy back. There's nothing about it concerning fear or safety; seatbelts are for safety. It's just a mindset of preparedness.
Fear of what ifs, unhealthy, unproductive? It's as if we live in opposite dimensions of logic. How do 'what ifs' stick around when you carry a tool to eliminate such possibilities? Where is preparedness to protect oneself and others considered unhealthy? How is my weapon being on my person counterproductive? It certainly has zero effect on my daily tasks.
It's clear that is a big thing in your countrymen's eyes, but it's just a part of our lives. I don't cower in my house all weekend because I'm out of ammunition. It's another thing I grab walking out of the door; keys, wallet, knife, gun. I guess you can't understand, because you don't have any other option; your forced to live with it and block out the thought; couldn't imagine flight before airplanes.
Please cite case examples of a boogieman hurting someone. You pretend like there's no such thing as a criminal; are the roads in AU padded and painted pink and blue as well? Sounds perfect over there. If you read the article, criminals sometimes burst in restaurants with machetes. Perhaps you feel comfortable in your 20+ years experience of "so yeah" to deal with that situation, good for you. I'd prefer to drop the bastard from across the room. Common sense? Common sense is bringing a gun to a knife fight.
Hey Jordan,
There is obviously not going to be a mutual conclusion to this conversation that we both agree upon so, I think that we may just have to leave it here.
Frankly, your one-eyed view on this conversation is starting to piss me off.
I wish you and your firearms all the best.
Cheers.
I'm sorry but for an opinion that is apparently irrelevant, y'all seem might upset by it.
I'll just get on with my life and leave you all to stroke your barrels in quiet contemplation.
Peace Out.
anti-american... i've heard that term about 1000 times in this post and ironically, only from you. looks like your fighting yourself in your own little world... snap out of it, get out of your own kingdom (your head, not america!) and welcome back to planet earth!
You should travel more, open your mind and understand that not everything is about you, your country or your people. Thank god all the other people i know from your country are not obtuse !
Stop the nonsense about Anti-american bullshit theme. this post is about photography+guns, not america.
you have serious issues...
I have read huge discussions on Dutch society matters like: legal soft drugs, legalized abortion, legalized euthanasia, almost free healthcare, homosexuality, same gender marriages, guaranteed income for the weak and so on. Hell, I was even once refused at the Canadian/US border by an US officer who believed legalized euthanasia meant that we killed our old people in our country.
Most negative comments came from Americans. All he things you say here about "us" anti-Americans were said about Dutch people. I never believed that they were anti-Dutch or tell us how to think and live, they just had a different opinion. Fine, that is what makes internet great, all people can have an opinion and discuss about it.
You structural negative approach to all who not agree is what creates some negative mindset about "Americans", this in "" because you are not America and do not speak for all Americans.
Dear Pete, keep it coming. it's been fun so far. cheers.